Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 25
# 11
07-12-2013, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by insanesenator View Post
I see your Grand Theft Auto and raise you the fact that The Sims is the highest selling video game franchise of all time, and it not only doesn't glorify, but punishes, violence. It has outsold the GTA franchise by nearly 3:1.

Heck, even Gran Turismo has outsold GTA on the PS2.

Not to mention the golden days of adventure games - Myst, Journeyman Project, LucasArts series, etc. All *mostly* nonviolent.
Fully agree with you here. I still spend more time in SL than anything else and still load up Portal 2 from time to time. However it's not what the (not gamers) people with the money see as something that will make them more money, thus you get 5 versions of GTA and 3 of the Sims... And don't me started on Call of Juarez: The Cartel.

Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
as great as those guys are, and as much as i think -this vid here- applies to sto ground based content like a glove, the player cant fix the game mechanics in the foundry.
I agree there are massive limitations with the Foundry. However it's the first game in a game where you can create content that's played by all other players of the game. This is a chance for real ST fans to create all kinds of game play.

I'm currently trying to figure out how to create a story game similar in construction to Myst (AKA puzzle solving) that ends with a hard non black and white choice. I've only had the chance to get through the training vids so it's pretty primitive but the more I'm learning the more ideas for a puzzle type game.

I will be offering suggestions through the forum's once I have a good idea how exactly they can improve the game making process. Currently I'm looking for a way to make the mission fail without blowing up your ship.

Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
picard was a decietful pretentious trite little coward.
moment he got the upper hand on the borg in q who, blowing massive holes in the cube, he ordered the e'd to run away at top speed rather than pressing the advintage to at least cripple the cube.
This is a good example of a choice with consequences that are missing from missions in STO. Programming this in the Foundry would be very hard at this time but I do think if asked for the programmers could find a way.

Last edited by tomokwihnai; 07-12-2013 at 09:37 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,446
# 12
07-12-2013, 09:49 AM
Drops aren't rewards for killing. They're not plunder, or piracy, or spoils of war, or even salvage (as Star Trek pretty much universally adopts Earth's maritime law treaties, you can't claim salvage rights on a military vessel outside your waters during peacetime). Taking weaponry, supplies, buildings, vessels, even money from an enemy combatant during a conflict is called a prize of war. Something the Federation has been shown to engage in, with two title captains capturing enemy ships and all of them bringing smaller pieces of enemy technology aboard their ships. This only becomes a violation of the laws of war when you use that equipment under a false flag, something the Federation has only been shown to do in special missions. Captured (i.e. lockbox) ships are not flown under flase flag, they still identify themselves as Starfleet.

And XP isn't even being given to you as a reward. This is a game system used to quantify the improvement of a character's abilities as they hone their skills. This is you learning, not you getting paid by the headcount.

Last edited by hevach; 07-12-2013 at 09:56 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 984
# 13
07-12-2013, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
picard was a decietful pretentious trite little coward.
moment he got the upper hand on the borg in q who, blowing massive holes in the cube, he ordered the e'd to run away at top speed rather than pressing the advintage to at least cripple the cube.
Lol no. This is one of the biggest misconceptions people have about what went down in that episode.

There was no advantage or upper hand on the Borg in 'QWho'. Those phaser blasts nicked the surface of the cube, they weren't massive blasts and none of the blasts penetrated into any vital systems. All they did was destroy a tractor beam emplacement. The borg didn't reengage the tractor beam from another emitter nor did they destroy the Enterprise for the same reason a cat likes to play with a mouse. Hell that's one of the things the away team learned from beaming over - when a borg drone walks past them unconcerned, Riker comments 'They either don't see us, or don't see us as a threat.' (emphasis mine) This is confirmed in dialogue in 'Best of Both Worlds part 1'. The borg cube is full of redundant power systems that kick in when the cube sustains damage. Over three quarters of the cube could be damaged before you would be able to mission-kill it, and an entire fleet of ships wasn't able to do that in 'Best of Both Worlds part 2'.

The borg outright tell Picard in 'QWho' that they've analysed his ship's defences as being unable to withstand them. In the same episode Picard throws photon torpedoes at them and they do no damage. Picard chose the opportunity to send an away team over to the cube to get intel on them rather than firing on them further. If he had instead decided to tell Worf to continue firing it would have been a futile gesture and at worst would have hastened the Borg to regenerate and deal with this troublesome ship in a more permanent fashion. At the very least, all that 'QWho' shows is that the cube was momentarily vulnerable to phasers, but at no point did the borg feel threatened or react against the Enterprise like they were a serious threat. Which suggests that the Enterprise couldn't have destroyed the cube even if Picard had wanted to.

EDIT And I forgot to mention, if running away from a superior threat was 'cowardly' then you have a weird definition of bravery. I'd rather my Captain was coward who ran away than a brave fool who would spend the lives of his crew on futile resistance. As it turned out, Picard made the right call to flee as the away team discovered the Borg weren't damaged but regenerating, and that they hadn't been neutralised at all but were still a threat. Hell, as soon as the Enterprise warped away the borg cube started pursuit, at faster than the Enterprise's top speed, whilst damaged! Picard made the right call, and by doing so he saved his ship and his crew and gave Starfleet the head's-up warning it needed on this massive new threat.

Last edited by stofsk; 07-12-2013 at 03:45 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 799
# 14
07-12-2013, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by stofsk View Post
Lol no. This is one of the biggest misconceptions people have about what went down in that episode.

This was back when the Borg were a force of nature. The unstoppable doomsday force. You had the same chance of stopping them as you do stopping an F5 tornado.

THAT is what people fail to understand -- in STO they are little more than annoying zombies that can be slaughtered by the truckload. Heck you routinely slaughter a cube with FIVE ships then take out fleets of spheres... then a TACTICAL CUBE. Did I say five ships? 39 ships couldn't do that in Picard's time.

People complain about oneshotting but that is the true power of the Borg, as seen in FC and the DS9 pilot. Footage from BoBW shows ships that were FRAGMENTED and burned to a crisp.

Frankly that is no fun to play against -- but that's how they were originally written. Over time they became weak, and exploitable, and finally a single scout-ship on a three hour tour was able to smack them around on their home turf.

Its a tradeoff. In order to work in a game they have to be destructable, and exploitable and easy to overcome. As written however they were anything but.
ISE ISE Ba-bee. "If you got the Borg yo... I'll solve 'em check out this shot while my torpedos dissolve 'em"
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,023
# 15
07-12-2013, 05:10 PM
XP represent your character improving in combat skill, and in command skill. The more he/she fight, the more skilled he/she become, and the more combat skill you can develop.
Commendation XP represent your character improving in non combat skill, diplomacy, trade... Diplomacy XP is also earned during some conversations and choices. They will increase your diplomacy rank, which will open new conversations during some episodes, and new missions.

In ST, it would be like Picard earning XP when fighting the borg, and earning commendation XP when succesfully communicating with Dathon in Darmok.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 376
# 16
07-14-2013, 03:21 AM
For those arguing that it doesn't reward killing or just represents skill - my point was that if you had a choice between talking someone down or killing them, you'd get points for the latter and not for the former. XP, loot etc. is geared towards eliminating enemies or completing missions. You may say that loot isn't a reward for killing, but you only get it when a body hits the floor - sounds like a reward for killing to me.

I guess if I need to be constructivist in my point, I'd say that we need to see a wider array of how points and loot is allocated both in mainstream games and in the foundry. You should have far more opportunities for gaining XP by avoiding a combat situation, or diffusing tensions, than for engaging in hostile action. That option should be available in the foundry also, to specify certain events as being equal in accomplishment reward to eliminating a hostile group.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 316
# 17
07-18-2013, 10:08 AM
My captain comes from the James T Kirk school of star captaining....never leave a jaw un-punched

it's unfortunate that TNG has become the primary focus of Star Trek in people's eyes...I get that they were trying to show a peaceful people but when someone is shooting at you it's ok to shoot back.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 18
07-18-2013, 10:52 AM
Regarding XP: Yes, it is an abbreviation, for "Experience Points". However, as noted in a few places, we get no experience for avoiding combat, meaning that our character has learned nothing from a diplomatic solution.

This goes back to "a rose by any other name...". You can claim it to be experience gained in combat, or whatever other name you want to, but here is the simpest way to view it.

1. Experience is necessary to rank/grade up, IE, to level.
2. Experience is NOT given for non-combat options.
3. Experience *IS* given for killing (I have yet to see a target stunned in an actual combat) an opponent.

What this means is that the only way to be rewarded with a promotion for hard work is to kill everything that isn't Federation in sight. That makes experience a reward for killing.

Regarding loot: Let's examine how we can acquire new, improved items.
1: Mission completion. Usually heavily based upon killing things.
2: Drop from combat. Requires that a player kill an enemy.
3: STF/Que reward. Requires that a player kill things.
4: Dilithium store. Requires dilithium, earned from missions revolving around killing things.
5: Exchange: Requires that someone else killed things to get the loot, and you killed things to get the EC to buy it.

So, if I want to refit my ship with improved weapons, say from photons to quantums, I must first go off and kill things, to make money, or dilithium, or to find them. Then I can install them.

Again... the entire reward system is based around killing. Offhand, I can't actually think of a single mission where there is no combat. Granted, in some the player or players are the defenders, rather than the aggressors, but the principle remains the same.

I would like to see some mechanics in place, and they wouldn't be hard for the devs to do, where a mission can have variable "mini-outcomes", based upon player standing, choices, etc, where you could, easily, if you choose, go through the entire mission without combat, and still be rewarded just as well as if you killed everything in sight.
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 63
# 19
07-18-2013, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by jsck82 View Post
3. Experience *IS* given for killing (I have yet to see a target stunned in an actual combat) an opponent.
Agree with the rest of this, but there are a few missions where there's "set phasers to stun" as part of the dialog. From where, we're supposed to believe that when they flop over they're just stunned.

Space: Sure, there should be more diplomatic chances, but a lot of the battles are against fanatics who aren't going to be talked down: Borg, Klingons, True Way. (Tal Shiar? Maybe, if they recognize it means their skins can be saved for another day.) Maybe a phase of an enemy being disabled (and not going to recover) where the weapons turn off automatically before the ships actually blow up would do it. But then the battle would be littered with these hulls floating about.

Ground: I found the ground mechanics far more disturbing than space. On the ground, my team's phasers should rarely be set to kill. Stun them, collect them up, and trade them back.

Last edited by tewha7; 07-18-2013 at 11:51 AM.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 376
# 20
07-18-2013, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by tewha7 View Post
but a lot of the battles are against fanatics who aren't going to be talked down: Borg, Klingons, True Way. (Tal Shiar? Maybe, if they recognize it means their skins can be saved for another day.)
Borg granted, but all the others? What happened with the Romulan's in The Enemy? Cease fire almost lost, saved at last minute through diplomacy. In Ensigns of Command, did Picard stop the Sheliak from wiping out the colony through a lot of ground and space combat, or by finding an obscure paragraph of a treaty to create a 6 month delay?

On 'set phasers to sun', I always try to believe this but;
a) combat is still combat
b) when you blow up the enemy ship, were your phasers on stun then? Is that ship of several hundred lives going to wake up 5 minutes later in sickbay? No, and like Feds maybe there were families on board.

There are alternative ways to run game mechanics. Even games such as Dishonoured that is very violent still has an option to play through the entire game and develop your character without killing anyone. Sure you knock them out and stick them in a dumpster, but you don't have to orphan their children. Trek isn't about a string of combat scenarios, it's about peaceful, intelligent exploration, peacekeeping and characters. There needs ot be some better way to reward players who want the non-combat option and right now, that is just through the foundry but play a non-combat mission in the foundry and you miss out on a shed load of XP and loot.

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