Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,171
# 91
07-16-2013, 09:01 PM
so now its %, it seemed like it was subtracting a flat ~12 from whatever % you had resist in something. oh and it seems to apply twice to disruptor damage resistance. everything else would be -12, and disruptor resist was -24. you could see it displayed in the defense section
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,496
# 92
07-16-2013, 09:17 PM
Hrmm, are the debuffs final modifiers then?

Base + BuffX + BuffY - DebuffZ sort of thing? BuffY wears off, DebuffZ recalcs off of Base + BuffX?

Do multiple Debuffs calc based on the order they were applied or to the non-Debuffed number?
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,799
# 93
07-16-2013, 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Hrmm, are the debuffs final modifiers then?

Base + BuffX + BuffY - DebuffZ sort of thing? BuffY wears off, DebuffZ recalcs off of Base + BuffX?

Do multiple Debuffs calc based on the order they were applied or to the non-Debuffed number?
ugh..just when I thought I understood it...you go and ask more questions....


lol


but yeah good questions. Id'e like to know also.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,859
# 94
07-16-2013, 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
Kind of. Resistance resists changes to resistance. So if, for instance, I have 40% Phaser Resistance but 0% to everything else:

-I get hit with a -10% Resist All debuff from a hypothetical debuff power
-My Phaser resistance resists 40% of that debuff, so my Phaser Resist goes down by 6%, down to 34%.
-All my other resistances are 0%, so the -10% debuff has its full effect

Starting Resists:
Phaser: 40%
All Other: 0%

Ending Resists:
Phaser: 34%
All Other: -10%

But wait, you say! The difference between 34% Resistance and 40% Resistance means that on a 100 damage hit, I used to take 60 damage, and now I'm taking 66 damage! I'm taking 10% more damage!

That's correct - you will take 10% more damage across the board when you get hit with a -10% resistance debuff. The tricky part is just that your resistance *ratings* don't all change at the same rate - they vary based on how high they were to begin with. As a general rule, Resistance buffs and debuffs should never be affected by damage multipliers, and they should always be affected by other resistance values. Any scenario in which this is not the case creates strange damage multiplication corollaries around either very high or very low resistance/damage buff edge cases.
I was under the impression that all buffs and debuffs to damage resistance were actually buffs and debuffs to damage resistance rating. I thought these buffs and debuffs were summed to get a final damage resistance rating, which was then input to a formula (see the link below) to get the damage resistance percentage.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance

Are you saying that damage resistance buffs and debuffs now add or subtract damage resistance percentages directly, but scaled based on the current damage resistance percentage? Was this always the case, or is this a new change? Or does the scenario you outlined above apply only to the disruptor proc?

Maybe, you should just give us the mathematical formulas. Some people understand numerical examples better, but I prefer the general rule.

Last edited by frtoaster; 07-17-2013 at 12:34 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,859
# 95
07-17-2013, 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Hrmm, are the debuffs final modifiers then?

Base + BuffX + BuffY - DebuffZ sort of thing? BuffY wears off, DebuffZ recalcs off of Base + BuffX?

Do multiple Debuffs calc based on the order they were applied or to the non-Debuffed number?
If I understand adjudicatorhawk correctly, then it should work like shield resistances. For shield resistances, we have

SR_final = 1 - (1 - SR_buff_1) * ... * (1 - SR_buff_N).

I'm guessing that for hull resistances, we would have

HR_final = 1 - (1 - HR_initial) * (1 + HR_debuff_1) * ... * (1 + HR_debuff_M).

Note that the above formulas are incomplete, because they don't include shield resistance debuffs and hull resistance buffs. My guess is that the complete formulas are

SR_final = 1 - (1 - SR_buff_1) * ... * (1 - SR_buff_N) * (1 + SR_debuff_1) * ... * (1 + SR_debuff_M)

and

HR_final = 1 - (1 - HR_initial) * (1 - HR_buff_1) * ... * (1 - HR_buff_N) * (1 + HR_debuff_1) * ... * (1 + HR_debuff_M).
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,623
# 96
07-17-2013, 01:02 AM
Well, Disruptors are getting fixed, the patch is on Tribble.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,496
# 97
07-17-2013, 08:10 AM
Thing is, Hull Damage Resistance doesn't work like Shield Damage Reduction.

On one of my guys, his base DR is 27.0%.

Following info from STOwiki:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Starship_Threat_Control
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Starship_Hull_Plating
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance

Can easily see how he got to the 27.0%...

Threat Control 3: +5.4 DRR
Hull Plating 6: +12.6 DRR
Accolades: +2.0 DRR
Neut Mk XI: +17.5 DRR
+37.5 DRM...DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))...27.0% DR

APO3 adds +35.5 DRM...our expected new DR would be: 41.06%
It displays 41.1%

AtS1 adds +16.4 DRM...popping that with the APO3 up, would expect 45.556% - which I'd have rounded to 45.6% but the system rounds to 45.5%.

The buffs are adding DRM/DRR - they're not percentages like the shield stuff. The buffs being added don't calculate like SDR does. It's not a case of calculating the DR from the 35.5 DRM and then working through the shield formula. It's just adding the DRR to the DRM and then calculating the new DR.

We know from what Hawk said, that the Disrupt 10% is resisted by the DR. So with that 27% guy, his DR would drop to 19.7%.

DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
.197 = (3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
0.06566666666666666666666666666667 = (0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2)
(75/(150+DRM))^2 = 0.18433333333333333333333333333333
75/(150+DRM) = 0.42934057964899303626287485420243
174.68649262391217569465975080569 = 150 + DRM
24.686492623912175694659750805694 = DRM

+35.5 from APO3, would result in a DR of ~36.8%

That's if the APO3 was applied after the Disrupt was applied to the base.

41.06%, ~35.2%% would be what it would be if it were applied to the base + APO3.

So a case of figuring that it doing the recalc after buffs were applied (wore off) being more likely, but just wanting to make sure.

But the other part was regarding other debuffs...which gets a little complicated, eh?

APB/APD apply a -DRR modifier. So does the Mega Torp.

So for the most part, do those just plug into the overall DRM calc to determine DR and then the Disrupt proc is applied as a final mod - being recalculated as all of that changes?

Doesn't matter if the DRM goes negative...

If we look at the formula: NDR = ODR - (10 - (ODR * 0.1) ex: 40 - (10 - (40 * 0.1) = 34%

So going back to the guy from above. 27 - (10 - (27 * 0.1) = 19.7%

But let's apply a -47.1 DRR debuff from shooting at somebody sporting APD3.

37.5 + (-47.1) = -9.6 DRM = -10.6% DR
-10.6 - (10 - (-10.6 * 0.1) = -21.66% DR

Say we apply that 100 damage...
100 * 1.106 = 110.6
100 * 1.2166 = 121.66

The Disrupt proc is still adding 10% damage.

So again, just making sure that the Disrupt proc was a final modifier...

((BaseDRM + (+BuffsDRR) + (-BuffsDRR))converted to DR - Disrupt = new DR

That it's recalculated like that each time a buff/debuff is added/wears off...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,496
# 98
07-17-2013, 09:04 AM
As an aside, regarding things like APD3.

Consider the following:

0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
vs. 0 DRM = 0%, meaning 100% damage is taken.
An increase of +84.4% damage.

37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
vs. 37.5 DRM = 27%, meaning 73% damage is taken.
An increase of +37.6% damage.

73 DRM (base + APO3) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
vs. 73 DRM = 41.1%, meaning 58.9% damage is taken.
An increase of +20.6% damage.

Is it really supposed to be variable like that?

Well, because things appear to stack (only did the the APB/APD part). As in Player A could drop out APD - Player B could fire up APB - Player C could drop out a Mega Torp...

So the APD applies -47.1...
With the APB applying -37.8...
And the Mega Torp doing -33...
For a total of -117.9 DRR.

That 0 DRM guy would take +1562.7% damage.
The 37.5 DRM guy (27% DR) would take +273.4% damage.
The 73 DRM guy (27% base + APO3) would take +77.8% damage.

So is it variable like that...or...is the tooltip thing a display issue and APD/APB/etc are actually doing a percentage thing like the Disruptor proc?
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,456
# 99
07-17-2013, 09:45 AM
EDITED FOR CIVILITY - SORRY.

You nerfed my disruptors,




EDIT: Sorry Hawk. Sorry PvPers. Heat of the moment, buying Mk12 purple disruptor consoles less than a week before the announcement of a fix stung a little bit.

Hey ho, that's the way life is sometimes. I apologise

Last edited by topset; 07-17-2013 at 04:39 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,496
# 100
07-17-2013, 10:02 AM
edit: Meh, that was more hostile than it needed to be, though I'm not sure this is any less hostile...meh.

If PvE folks were more diligent/honest about what is broken in the game, rather than continuing to exploit those issues...there would be fewer complaints about PvP folks being so diligent/honest about what is broken in the game.

Last edited by virusdancer; 07-17-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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