Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,520
# 101
07-17-2013, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by topset View Post
ARGH. More PvP whining ***** getting this nerfed for the rest of the community.

You nerfed my disruptors, DAMN YOU!, DAMN YOU!

if we had anything to do with bugged behavior getting fixed, which i doubt, your welcome
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Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 254
# 102
07-17-2013, 11:34 AM
Thanks everyone, you guys official got disruptors nerfed,feel free to pick up a lolly and join the party...............
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 103
07-17-2013, 11:38 AM
The real question is how much of a difference it really makes..i.e. how much additional damage were people taking when the de-buff was buffed, if you see what I mean.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,577
# 104
07-17-2013, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Thing is, Hull Damage Resistance doesn't work like Shield Damage Reduction.

On one of my guys, his base DR is 27.0%.

Following info from STOwiki:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Starship_Threat_Control
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Starship_Hull_Plating
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance

Can easily see how he got to the 27.0%...

Threat Control 3: +5.4 DRR
Hull Plating 6: +12.6 DRR
Accolades: +2.0 DRR
Neut Mk XI: +17.5 DRR
+37.5 DRM...DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))...27.0% DR

APO3 adds +35.5 DRM...our expected new DR would be: 41.06%
It displays 41.1%

AtS1 adds +16.4 DRM...popping that with the APO3 up, would expect 45.556% - which I'd have rounded to 45.6% but the system rounds to 45.5%.

The buffs are adding DRM/DRR - they're not percentages like the shield stuff. The buffs being added don't calculate like SDR does. It's not a case of calculating the DR from the 35.5 DRM and then working through the shield formula. It's just adding the DRR to the DRM and then calculating the new DR.
The above is how I thought damage resistance buffs and debuffs worked. That's why adjudicatorhawk's post confused me. Why is the disruptor proc being treated differently? If I remember correctly, the tooltip said it gave -10 to damage resistance rating. If the disruptor proc now functions like a -10% damage resistance debuff (that is, it works like shield debuffs now), then the tooltip is no longer correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
We know from what Hawk said, that the Disrupt 10% is resisted by the DR. So with that 27% guy, his DR would drop to 19.7%.

DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
.197 = (3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
0.06566666666666666666666666666667 = (0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2)
(75/(150+DRM))^2 = 0.18433333333333333333333333333333
75/(150+DRM) = 0.42934057964899303626287485420243
174.68649262391217569465975080569 = 150 + DRM
24.686492623912175694659750805694 = DRM

+35.5 from APO3, would result in a DR of ~36.8%

That's if the APO3 was applied after the Disrupt was applied to the base.
I doubt the game backwards calculates like this from damage resistance percentage to damage resistance rating. Your following conjecture is more likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
41.06%, ~35.2%% would be what it would be if it were applied to the base + APO3.

So a case of figuring that it doing the recalc after buffs were applied (wore off) being more likely, but just wanting to make sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
But the other part was regarding other debuffs...which gets a little complicated, eh?

APB/APD apply a -DRR modifier. So does the Mega Torp.

So for the most part, do those just plug into the overall DRM calc to determine DR and then the Disrupt proc is applied as a final mod - being recalculated as all of that changes?
I can't quite tell from what you wrote. Are you saying that you've tested APO, APB, and APD, and that they all just subtract from damage resistance rating? And the disruptor proc works just like adjudicatorhawk said, applying after the final damage resistance rating is converted to a damage resistance percentage?

What is this Mega Torp that decreases damage resistance rating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Doesn't matter if the DRM goes negative...

If we look at the formula: NDR = ODR - (10 - (ODR * 0.1) ex: 40 - (10 - (40 * 0.1) = 34%

So going back to the guy from above. 27 - (10 - (27 * 0.1) = 19.7%

But let's apply a -47.1 DRR debuff from shooting at somebody sporting APD3.

37.5 + (-47.1) = -9.6 DRM = -10.6% DR
-10.6 - (10 - (-10.6 * 0.1) = -21.66% DR

Say we apply that 100 damage...
100 * 1.106 = 110.6
100 * 1.2166 = 121.66

The Disrupt proc is still adding 10% damage.

So again, just making sure that the Disrupt proc was a final modifier...

((BaseDRM + (+BuffsDRR) + (-BuffsDRR))converted to DR - Disrupt = new DR

That it's recalculated like that each time a buff/debuff is added/wears off...

Last edited by frtoaster; 07-17-2013 at 01:13 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,577
# 105
07-17-2013, 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by topset View Post
ARGH. More PvP whining ***** getting this nerfed for the rest of the community.

You nerfed my disruptors, DAMN YOU!, DAMN YOU!

Quote:
Originally Posted by borgressistance View Post
Thanks everyone, you guys official got disruptors nerfed,feel free to pick up a lolly and join the party...............
Note that there were at least two threads on the disruptor proc bug before this one:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...81&postcount=7
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=611371
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 254
# 106
07-17-2013, 12:11 PM
the problem isnt a proc that can be buffed, the only bog or problem i see with it is that it double counts for disruptor weaponry,fix that isnt a problem, but let it be buffed from tac skills, what they doing now is destroying tje klingon side, the kdf romulan side, and 1 full set of fleet weapons,
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,577
# 107
07-17-2013, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
As an aside, regarding things like APD3.

Consider the following:

0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
vs. 0 DRM = 0%, meaning 100% damage is taken.
An increase of +84.4% damage.

37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
vs. 37.5 DRM = 27%, meaning 73% damage is taken.
An increase of +37.6% damage.

73 DRM (base + APO3) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
vs. 73 DRM = 41.1%, meaning 58.9% damage is taken.
An increase of +20.6% damage.

Is it really supposed to be variable like that?

Well, because things appear to stack (only did the the APB/APD part). As in Player A could drop out APD - Player B could fire up APB - Player C could drop out a Mega Torp...

So the APD applies -47.1...
With the APB applying -37.8...
And the Mega Torp doing -33...
For a total of -117.9 DRR.

That 0 DRM guy would take +1562.7% damage.
The 37.5 DRM guy (27% DR) would take +273.4% damage.
The 73 DRM guy (27% base + APO3) would take +77.8% damage.

So is it variable like that...or...is the tooltip thing a display issue and APD/APB/etc are actually doing a percentage thing like the Disruptor proc?
Let DRR denote the damage resistance rating and DRP denote the damage resistance percentage. Cryptic's formula is

DRP = 3*(1/4 - (75 / (150 + DRR))^2).

There are at least two problems with this formula:

1. It was likely designed for positive DRR only, but is blindly applied to negative DRR as well. Notice that DRP approaches minus infinity as DRR approaches -150. As DRR decreases further below -150, DRP actually increases. At DRR = -300, we have DRP = 0. For DRR < -300, DRP is actually positive.

2. For large values of DRR, the effect of diminishing returns becomes more apparent. This was explained clearly by guriphu in the following thread:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh....php?p=7529611
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,577
# 108
07-17-2013, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgressistance View Post
the problem isnt a proc that can be buffed, the only bog or problem i see with it is that it double counts for disruptor weaponry,fix that isnt a problem, but let it be buffed from tac skills, what they doing now is destroying tje klingon side, the kdf romulan side, and 1 full set of fleet weapons,
I'm not sure the bug actually was that it was double counting for disruptors. I know that's what some people in this thread said, but take a look at the screenshot in the post below.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=81

That clearly shows a case where the disruptor proc gave a larger plasma debuff than disruptor debuff. My guess is that the disruptor proc was actually buffed by tac consoles (and possibly damage accolades as well).
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,520
# 109
07-17-2013, 12:50 PM
its assumed this is a nerf, but it might have better average effect after this. these cases of negative 100 resistance though, its nothing i ever encounters with my disruptor use, i only ever say a double magnitude for disrupter debuff. there shouldn't be any -100 resistance proc in game anyway, its pretty shameful to gripe when something like that gets fixed. how many i win crutches to you pve kiddies need to blow up npcs?
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,959
# 110
07-17-2013, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
The above is how I thought damage resistance buffs and debuffs worked. That's why adjudicatorhawk's post confused me. Why is the disruptor proc being treated differently? If I remember correctly, the tooltip said it gave -10 to damage resistance rating. If the disruptor proc now functions like a -10% resistance debuff (that is, it works like shield debuffs now), then the tooltip is no longer correct.
Hrmm, yeah - got caught up in other things and completely overlooked that. It's one of my general tooltip questions on so many things - because - well, the tooltips are broken.

They've been trying to get away from percentages and to fixed values - which makes this kind of odd. It also serves as a buff to Disruptors, no?

Going back to the guy I used.

37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as -10: 21.4%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%

73 w/ APO3 = 41.4%
Disruptor as -10: 37.8%
Disruptor as -10%: 35.5%

Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
I doubt the game backwards calculates like this from damage resistance percentage to damage resistance rating. Your following conjecture is more likely.
Depends on whether it is a % or a number. If it is a number, then it is just worked into the calc like anything else. As a %, it gets a little more complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
I can't quite tell from what you wrote. Are you saying that you've tested APO, APB, and APD, and that they all just subtract from damage resistance rating? And the disruptor proc works just like adjudicatorhawk said, applying after the final damage resistance rating is converted to a damage resistance percentage?

What is this Mega Torp that decreases damage resistance rating?
I later tested to see if they show on a target, but I wasn't the target to see how the numbers played out - only that the debuffs showed on the target.

A target will show the debuffs. Would have to have two folks, with at least one of them flying a T'varo Retro/Fleet T'varo with the console - to look at what the actual numbers did.

The Mega Torp...the Burning Beachball...the console torpedo from the T'varo Retrofit. It applies a -33 DRR to the target for my guy with it (not sure if that number varies).

Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
Let DRR denote the damage resistance rating and DRP denote the damage resistance percentage. Cryptic's formula is

DRP = 3*(1/4 - (75 / (150 + DRR))^2).

There are at least two problems with this formula:

1. It was likely designed for positive DRR only, but is blindly applied to negative DRR as well. Notice that DRP approaches minus infinity as DRR approaches -150. As DRR decreases further below -150, DRP actually increases. At DRR = -300, we have DRP = 0. For DRR < -300, DRP is actually positive.

2. For large values of DRR, the effect of diminishing returns becomes more apparent. This was explained clearly by guriphu in the following thread:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh....php?p=7529611
They've got a certain amount of control as far as how low it can go, but there's that definite issue that arises as you approach that controlled cap they have. They've probably looked outside the formula to make sure that DRR never hits -150 - boom, STO crashes...lol.

But still...

25 DRR = 19.9% DRP, 80.1% damage taken
-25 DRR = -33% DRP, 133% damage taken

There has to be another formula out there. Some other procedure that takes place with it being negative. Kind of like what happens with Acc vs. Def...if the value is Pos or if the value is Neg. That sort of thing...hrmmm.
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