Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 21
07-18-2013, 02:03 PM
Fair enough with the set phasers to stun.

As someone else said, why don't we take prisoners of war, and trade them back, perhaps as part of a prisoner exchange (possible mission here? Maybe I'll get to work in the foundry )

For ship to ship combat, well, a completely "destroyed" ship doesnt need to explode, either, except for game mechanics It could be adrift with no power, life support, or possibility of repair, and players could have the option to save the enemy crew (again, this may or may not always be possible, feasible, or even a good idea, but hey, that's for a captain to decide, right?)

I guess my take is that while we may or may not agree that deadly force is always necessary, the player should have the option to decide, and to act accordingly.

One idea could be, and this would require mechanics changes, that the player could set a level, such as stun, kill, or maximum, and have things occur accordingly? Perhaps, with different mission progress points, as the outcome, storywise, is predetermined.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 118
# 22
07-18-2013, 02:33 PM
City of Heroes had the same problem, enemies were merely "defeated" instead of killed because you were the good guys. Even though a purse snatching thug might have been incinerated to a near crisp, had his arms hacked off by a katana, punched square in the face by a fist the size of a small car and had his soul sucked out and destroyed for good measure, he was still "defeated." It became a running joke in the end.

Frankly I could easily see my KDF officer killing on a whim. The Fed officer it is harder since the ship likely has civilians on-board, Starfleet morals and the peaceful nature of the Caitian race, but that's still a ship with a ton of people aboard that just blew up. Maybe some got to escape pods? Then I blow up, respawn and meh, doesn't matter.
========================================
SABLE SQUADRON ~ Caitian Engineer
The bigger the ship the better.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 27
# 23
07-18-2013, 03:18 PM
So you're saying you should get XP points to put into your combat abilities, even if you don't practice your combat abilities? You should get new weapons for your ship, but not have to actually use the ones you start with (thereby proving to your superiors you actually know what you're doing and can be trusted with a better weapon)?

There are ways to progress in the game without killing. Commendation ranks are very easy to obtain, with very little killing. (You'll have to complete a story mission or two before you get to lv7 and get your doffs.) Once you have your doffs, you can then focus solely on commendation ranks, and ignore combat all-together. Talk to the diplomacy corps guy in the admiral's office, and go on exploratory missions. Come across a planet/engagement that requires combat? Get out of red alert, warp out of system, and go look for another encounter that isn't hostile.

The fact is, you CAN avoid combat. Is it faster to just kill someone else and take their stuff? Duh, that's obvious. Will you feel more fulfilled for reaching Vice Admiral by scanning anomalies and meeting new races? That's determined on an individual basis.

The game does provide for both methods of play. You cant really complain that the developers aren't forcing the players to choose which path to take, because that wouldn't be much of a game.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 484
# 24
07-19-2013, 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowpheonix787 View Post
So you're saying you should get XP points to put into your combat abilities, even if you don't practice your combat abilities?
You don't just spend on combat. Impulse engines, deflectors, uniforms etc. are all useful for non-combat actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowpheonix787 View Post
There are ways to progress in the game without killing.
Small bits, but if you want to get through the storyline you have no option but to defeat enemy group A & B before talking to the contact. There is no option to even try diplomacy are rarely to sneak around them. And who wants to play only doff missions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowpheonix787 View Post
The fact is, you CAN avoid combat. Is it faster to just kill someone else and take their stuff? Duh, that's obvious. Will you feel more fulfilled for reaching Vice Admiral by scanning anomalies and meeting new races? That's determined on an individual basis.

The game does provide for both methods of play. You cant really complain that the developers aren't forcing the players to choose which path to take, because that wouldn't be much of a game.
Again, all those things are small side areas that provide no real rewards. Just take once glance at how other games do it and how it is possible to do it a different way. Yes for many it is not seen as important because they like blowing things up, but I think as something that calls itself Trek to have that option.

I think someone earlier mentioned this was an emphasis on TNG and Kirk would punch them. Think to the plot of the Corbomite Maneuver. That was a great episode where, as traditionally as always, Kirk bluffed his way out without needing to fire a shot and then made peace. He did not defeat 5 groups of increasingly powerful First Federation ships. Likewise, the Ultimate Computer, The Squire of Gothos, Devil in the Dark, Tholians Web, The Enterprise Incident, The Changeling, Spectre of the Gun all involved threatening aliens capable of destroying them and not a single one was defeated by firing phasers at them (though granted Squire of Gothos involved shooting a mirror). They were defeated through intelligence, compassion, cunning and bluffing.

& Rose Tinted Mirror (Fed 31+)
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,089
# 25
07-19-2013, 01:55 AM
To be honest Star Trek and MMO's don't really fit. MMO's are primarily combat focused. Star Trek is far from combat oriented..and when the series (DS9) took on a combat focus (war) many fans felt that it went against the core of Star Trek.
Should their be missions where you never fire a weapon? Probably. However I'd think those missions would be boring as hell.
The Corbomite Maneuver is a cool episode but as an episode in an MMO it would involve the player clicking dialogue decisions. That doesn't sound like fun to me.
Which would sound like a better episode in the game:
An Episode based on Star Trek The Motion Picture or
An Episode based on Undiscovered Country???

Now I am not saying the story lines aren't due for an upgrade. Hell this game could add a few things to give it more of a Trek feel.
1) Have a mission take place on our ships? Nothing is more personal than someone trying to take over our ships
2) Make use of some of these planets. Wouldn't it be cool if I create a Vulcan captain and every time I set foot on Vulcan a specialized mission occurs?
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 390
# 26
07-19-2013, 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsck82 View Post
Regarding XP: Yes, it is an abbreviation, for "Experience Points". However, as noted in a few places, we get no experience for avoiding combat, meaning that our character has learned nothing from a diplomatic solution.

This goes back to "a rose by any other name...". You can claim it to be experience gained in combat, or whatever other name you want to, but here is the simpest way to view it.

1. Experience is necessary to rank/grade up, IE, to level.
2. Experience is NOT given for non-combat options.
3. Experience *IS* given for killing (I have yet to see a target stunned in an actual combat) an opponent.

What this means is that the only way to be rewarded with a promotion for hard work is to kill everything that isn't Federation in sight. That makes experience a reward for killing.

Regarding loot: Let's examine how we can acquire new, improved items.
1: Mission completion. Usually heavily based upon killing things.
2: Drop from combat. Requires that a player kill an enemy.
3: STF/Que reward. Requires that a player kill things.
4: Dilithium store. Requires dilithium, earned from missions revolving around killing things.
5: Exchange: Requires that someone else killed things to get the loot, and you killed things to get the EC to buy it.

So, if I want to refit my ship with improved weapons, say from photons to quantums, I must first go off and kill things, to make money, or dilithium, or to find them. Then I can install them.

Again... the entire reward system is based around killing. Offhand, I can't actually think of a single mission where there is no combat. Granted, in some the player or players are the defenders, rather than the aggressors, but the principle remains the same.

I would like to see some mechanics in place, and they wouldn't be hard for the devs to do, where a mission can have variable "mini-outcomes", based upon player standing, choices, etc, where you could, easily, if you choose, go through the entire mission without combat, and still be rewarded just as well as if you killed everything in sight.
I have to disagree, I don't shoot anyone by answering a lore question, or aiding a planet, or scanning consoles or some strange plant, nor does my Doffs do any killing and all that gives XP/expertise and I can make EC or dilitium off them all.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 484
# 27
07-19-2013, 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by khan5000 View Post
Should their be missions where you never fire a weapon? Probably. However I'd think those missions would be boring as hell.
There are loads of story-centric, character driven foundry episodes with no shooting and I find them far more interesting than missions built around defeating the same tired bad guys over and over, including many Cryptic missions which can get very dull and 2D. I'm sure someone in CBS was moaning how the Corbomite Manouver would be a lot cooler if they actually had a fight scene.

& Rose Tinted Mirror (Fed 31+)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 994
# 28
07-19-2013, 09:03 AM
I agree that the main game story and endgame content is too militaristic for Federation philosophy. If you really wanted to role play it out, there are ways around this. People routinely level up alts by doing nothing but Doff assignments, so you could do that. Even stay away from the Military and Espionage tracks if you want to take it that far. You could spend your in game time running Diplomacy missions in the star clusters, or doing non-combat oriented Foundry content. Granted, you would run out of content a lot faster than most, but it is very possible to get to level 50 with barely firing a shot. Heck, with the Doff thing I know people who dinged 50 while still sitting in their starter ship. They never bothered to get any of the Tier 1-4 ones.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,089
# 29
07-19-2013, 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by isthisscience View Post
There are loads of story-centric, character driven foundry episodes with no shooting and I find them far more interesting than missions built around defeating the same tired bad guys over and over, including many Cryptic missions which can get very dull and 2D. I'm sure someone in CBS was moaning how the Corbomite Manouver would be a lot cooler if they actually had a fight scene.
I wasn't saying the actual episode was boring...it's not...just that as a game mission it would be.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 30
# 30
07-19-2013, 01:18 PM
First off, great thread. While I play sto I often think of how killing all of these people goes against federation morals. I agree with the position that much of sto goes against federation principals.
That being said it is a fair point that in sto you can also play as a Klingon and avoid the moral problem altogether.
It would be rather easy to fix this problem in sto. Instead of blowing up, non borg ships could be 'disabled' and fade form view much as stunned/killed enemies do on the ground.
Borg ships need to be killed because if they are not, their ship will be up and running in a couple minutes and back to shooting at you and assimilating people.
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