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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,426
# 21
08-14-2013, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
It's really funny how the original designers appear like total geniuses these days.
It was a different game back then... PVP mattered, multiplayer mattered, immersion mattered. All we have now is a single-player game, and most of the layered systems are about increasing the rate of blowing up more computer targets faster. Its so far down that path, the game is essentially immutable, and the only way to "fix" pvp is to exempt it from the existing combat model entirely.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 945
# 22
08-14-2013, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterkeychnk5 View Post
I still dont get the particular issue...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Personally I don't see a problem with double tap builds...
Wow, what a surprise. Sad Pandas doesn't see anything wrong with double-tap builds. Maybe it's because that's the only way Pandas fight nowadays...

MT, you always play down whatever OP stuff you're running. Like when the BO doff came out and there was a thread about how OP it was, you were sitting there saying how it wasn't very good while at the same time you were running it and getting alpha-strike kills without even taking your target's shield facing down. Now the double-tap build that you're also running is no big deal either because of yadayadayada. How do you expect this game to ever be balanced if the people that run the OP stuff lie about its effectiveness just so they can get more kills?
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@DevolvedOne
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 23
08-14-2013, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skurf View Post
Wow, what a surprise. Sad Pandas doesn't see anything wrong with double-tap builds. Maybe it's because that's the only way Pandas fight nowadays...
This might come as a shock, but you can kill us with that too.

It works both ways.


And if you don't mind, you're talking to two players - we are not the sum total of all opinions in our fleet. This isn't the military, it's a video game.

Do you profess to speak 100% for everyone in your fleet at once?

Please try not to make too many assumptions.

This is my opinion, in a thread full of other people's opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skurf View Post
How do you expect this game to ever be balanced if the people that run the OP stuff lie about its effectiveness just so they can get more kills?
Which OP stuff would that be? The tractor beam spamming, warp piss spewing pets or TIF lovers, or 50s multi-target GPG spam? How about coordinated AMS usage?

Does your fleet have some list of items you guys refuse to run in the queues?

This is PvP, none of us are angels here.


There are so many mindlessly spammable abilities, and passive mitigation powers that do not require good timing or even much thought - items that are so far out of balance, that I personally don't see a problem with double tap builds that have a kill window of about 5s.



That's it, there is no conspiracy here. It's not like this tactic is a secret, the devs know it exist - if they feel it's not WAI they will change it.


I'd love to go back to running just DHCs and not having to worry about squeezing DEM and multiple BOs and Marion into builds and manually having to double tap my DBB on my hotbar, but unfortunately that is no longer as effective as it used to be.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 08-14-2013 at 11:39 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 40
# 24
08-14-2013, 11:11 AM
I'll take coordinated BO spike over bull**** frame killing pet/plasma/console spam any day.

Just about every ship out there can basically spec to be near unkillable if they really wanted to. Of all the pvp problems with abilities/inconsistencies/ships/consoles, I would say this isn't even going to make the top 100 list.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,442
# 25
08-14-2013, 01:22 PM
Honestly, BO builds are nothing new. They've been around for a LONG time. They only really got more popular with the Marion DOFF. Back in the ole days, people would just use a weapon battery between shots anyways.

Stack BO, wait 15 seconds, stack another BO of a different level. Pop Tac buffs, fire first BO, hit weapons battery, fire second BO.

You could add in other things, like a tractor beam, or a PSW.

Honestly, even today it's really not a big issue IMO. It only really gets irking with the BO DOFF. It's only going to get less fun with the Crescent Wave weapons soon.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 26
08-14-2013, 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Honestly, BO builds are nothing new. They've been around for a LONG time. They only really got more popular with the Marion DOFF. Back in the ole days, people would just use a weapon battery between shots anyways.

Stack BO, wait 15 seconds, stack another BO of a different level. Pop Tac buffs, fire first BO, hit weapons battery, fire second BO.

You could add in other things, like a tractor beam, or a PSW.

Honestly, even today it's really not a big issue IMO. It only really gets irking with the BO DOFF. It's only going to get less fun with the Crescent Wave weapons soon.
This. If I really cared to do so, I could stack two BOs using this method or something similar, it's just a matter of liberal battery usage. I don't feel I need it, though. Really, beyond a certain point. . .it tends to remove the challenge from the game. That's part of the reason I run with BO3 + HY3 + TB2. It's defeatable, and thus fair in my eyes.
tIqIpqu' 'ej nom tIqIp
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 486
# 27
08-14-2013, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skurf View Post
you always play down whatever OP stuff you're running. Like when the BO doff came out and there was a thread about how OP it was, you were sitting there saying how it wasn't very good while at the same time you were running it and getting alpha-strike kills without even taking your target's shield facing down. Now the double-tap build that you're also running is no big deal either because of yadayadayada. How do you expect this game to ever be balanced if the people that run the OP stuff lie about its effectiveness just so they can get more kills?
Im sure tons of people tried it out, ive been using it on and off, im still tweaking my builds and im pretty sure its not needed to do successful double taps And vaping through RSP is still pretty much doable with or without the doff as well.

I wouldnt have a single problem if rules on a specific match or tournament would to be 'no BO bleedthrough doffs'. Not a single argument from me there. And i still stand by my statement that the BO bleed doffs dont change a whole lot, some options could even be better to use depending on the build.

Last edited by masterkeychnk5; 08-14-2013 at 05:18 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 577
# 28
08-14-2013, 05:42 PM
The problem is not the double BO, the problem are the romulans and the many things that u can use for reduce the energy drain of the BO. And ofc the BO doff, the penetration value of that doff is simple stupid
John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,142
# 29
08-14-2013, 06:29 PM
I support nerfs to BO doffs. Other then that the only thing I think needs to be fixed is the stealth bonus stacking of Romulan boffs so passive stealth detection might actually work. Also maybe the range of CPB needs to be increased and its cool down lowered.

Something needs to be done, its getting far to easy for noobs who never played a BOP before to roll a Romulan and be able to do these alpha strikes. Make them learn how to do it properly like I do by precisely timing my decloak and tractor so BO and HY will most likely crit and torps hit bare hull. Most of the new Fed Rom double tap wonders can't be bothered to learn how to use torps in alpha strikes, I say make them learn and nerf non torpedo alphas away, and nerf cloak with training wheels from Romulan boffs so only experienced cloak users will know how to not be decloaked.
Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions

Last edited by marc8219; 08-14-2013 at 06:50 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,549
# 30
08-14-2013, 06:39 PM
Like many things in the game that are problematic, it is not the thing itself that is problematic. It's the lack of attention given to how things can potentially be used and interact, how X boosts Y and how Y boosts X...the BO thing is just one of many such things were the 2x BO is not the issue itself. Folks were doing it previously - but it was not what it is now.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
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