Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,054
# 41
08-14-2013, 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by furiontassadar View Post
As I mentioned, I'm currently messing around with playing a science vessel and I've noticed that, rather than a straight healer, it actually seems more like a controller or buffer/debuffer, especially with the right BOFF abilities. So, I was wondering, are any of those kind of science vessel abilities particularly useful in endgame or other group situations?
The problem with the STFs is that Gozer designed them to be DPS-centric. 5 Escorts can with relatively easily while 5 Cruisers or 5 Science Vessels can struggle. This means people generally try to push you into an Escort if you're doing STFs. That's not to say that Sci can't be useful, but most of the time the players are just looking for more direct DPS when grouping.

Quote:
Oh, and finally, are the Subsystem Targeting ability innate to science vessels of any use, either? They have fairly long cooldowns, and the only one that seemed to have any real noticeable effect was the Target Engines ability. Otherwise, it seemed like Tachyon Beam did more damage to an enemy's shields than targeting their shield subsystems did....
Sci abilities are generally dependent upon your Aux value. When you're soloing you generally don't have a high Aux as you're trying to keep your Weapons up as well, so you're probably not seeing the sub-system targeting having as great an effect. If you're running Aux in the 100+ range you can get a lot more benefit out of them.

So Sci ships generally have 2 different play-styles: mid-Aux when soloing and high-Aux when teaming - to get the most use out of your buff/debuffs for you and your teammates.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 207
# 42
08-14-2013, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by furiontassadar View Post
I have yet more questions!

As I mentioned, I'm currently messing around with playing a science vessel and I've noticed that, rather than a straight healer, it actually seems more like a controller or buffer/debuffer, especially with the right BOFF abilities. So, I was wondering, are any of those kind of science vessel abilities particularly useful in endgame or other group situations?

For example, a couple of my current favorite science officer BOFF abilities include Tachyon Beam and another that I believe is called Sensor Scamble. Tachyon Beam drains the shields of a target by a decent amount and Sensor Scramble causes enemies to temporarily target each other instead. I've been using Tachyon Beam to help strip away the shields on enemies- particularly larger ones, but the CD is short enough that I can use it on a few smaller ships in a group, too -and I've especially had fun using Sensor Scramble on groups of smaller ships; they make surprisingly short work of each other, particularly fighters, and I'm usually just left with finishing them off when the dust settles.

So, are either of those abilities equally as useful in, like, the Borg space STFs? Would Tachyon Beam be great for softening up the larger Borg Cubes, or is it usually faster to simply tear through their shields the old fashioned way? And, likewise, would there be a use for Sensor Scramble in STFs? I recall that there are some groups of smaller Borg vessels in some of the STFs. Or again, is it usually simpler to just shoot them down?

Actually, do any of the placate or hold-type science abilities work against the Borg at all? Even in Elite STFs? I ask because I know that, in some MMOs, CC-type abilities can sometimes have reduced effectiveness on certain enemies in harder endgame PVE content.

Oh, and finally, are the Subsystem Targeting ability innate to science vessels of any use, either? They have fairly long cooldowns, and the only one that seemed to have any real noticeable effect was the Target Engines ability. Otherwise, it seemed like Tachyon Beam did more damage to an enemy's shields than targeting their shield subsystems did....
No, but that's my opinion.

Here's a thread: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post11680781

Basically, your weapons when you are young (10-20) have a different synergy old (40-50). You'll have a huge weapon tray, multiple weapons etc. Basically just play the game and when you get there you'll understand. Things get so complicated you may want to look up how to bind powers to keys.

The bottom line is that you can make anything work. What is important is that you have fun doing it.

My first go round I used tachyon beam 3 -> tractor beam repulsor -> tachyon beam . This allowed me to get a double shot of tachyon beam on a target. It was fun, but now I find other builds more effective.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 112
# 43
08-15-2013, 08:20 AM
Thanks for linking that thread! Reading through it actually answered a lot of my questions and confirmed a few of my concerns regarding science vessels and science abilities....

Quote:
The problem with the STFs is that Gozer designed them to be DPS-centric. 5 Escorts can with relatively easily while 5 Cruisers or 5 Science Vessels can struggle. This means people generally try to push you into an Escort if you're doing STFs. That's not to say that Sci can't be useful, but most of the time the players are just looking for more direct DPS when grouping.
Quote:
The bottom line is that you can make anything work. What is important is that you have fun doing it.
In the end, I think these two points, which have already been stated a couple times in different forms in this thread, are what I really need to keep in mind as I go foreword in STO. If I can make cruisers and science vessels work for me and have fun in them, that's great, and I shouldn't stress too much about STFs, especially if I end up joining a friendly and accommodating fleet. If it turns out I prefer playing an escort after all, that's great too: I don't have to work as hard make myself viable in STFs and I'll presumable already be having fun flying one.

Thanks once again for all the advice, guys. Sorry some of my posts and responses could get a bit on the long and/or rambling side at times. ^_^;

Last edited by furiontassadar; 08-15-2013 at 08:22 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 544
# 44
08-15-2013, 08:43 AM
There are a lot of us who run Elite GROUND STFs. My fleet being one. If you take the time to learn the ground game it is quite fun. If you just run in and shoot you are missing most of it and will die quickly and fail Elite STFs. There are strategies and tactics to ground that can be a lot of fun, but most players just want to run and shoot and get the mission over with as soon as possible, and that mentality is not fun to me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 186
# 45
08-15-2013, 09:01 AM
If you're not going to run an escort in STFs, focus on abilities that will synergize with your teammates. Gravity Well is a great one. It clusters up enemy ships, forcing them to eat each others' warp core breaches. Also, don't underestimate Transfer Shield Strength and Hazard Emitters. They're both really effective and can free up a damaged teammates to get more aggressive, plus there's a few STFs where there are NPC allies which should be kept alive (Cure Found, for example).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,758
# 46
08-15-2013, 09:18 AM
Well built Cruisers (and I'm talking Captain build) as you can do Elite STFs easily with White MkX gear in ALL Cruisers.)

The simple fact is: As long as everyone in your team can pull 3K DPS; you'll be fine (and 3K DPS is really easy to do with any ship type IF you read up on the game and build accordingly; 5K in a Cruiser should also be fairly easily attainable. It's when you try to break 10K+ in a Cruiser that y9ou really need a good build, good weapons, and good piloting/maneuvering/keep your targets in the best weapon arcs for max firepower playing skills.)

Also, I've been in groups where the person in the escort was pulling under 1K DPS (and yes, at first I thought something was wrong with my parser; but other Fleetmates had seen the same thing when PUGing Elite STFs.

I honestly laugh when I see the myth perpetuated that - "You can only be really successful in elite STFs with Escorts/Tacs" as that's honest just not the case at all.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91861979000&dateline=  1340755546
PWE Drone says, "Your STO community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,115
# 47
08-15-2013, 09:22 AM
Elite Ground STFs have considerably less popularity for several reasons.
1. Season 7 largely invalidated any reason to play them, as now it's simply about grinding marks until you finish, then PAYING THROUGH THE NOSE to get anything out of it. Before, you had to pummel each specific STF to get the desired set piece you wanted, thus enforcing the need to play, if not master, all of them. Now? You grind ISE until you vomit, then you're done.
2. It is considerably harder for a single player to carry his less than competent teammates. Whereas a space STF like ISE can be solo'ed by a single well-equipped and skilled player, and it doesn't matter how utterly worthless the rest of the team might be, a ground STF typically requires strong participation from at least 2-3 players and a passable effort from the others. Incompetence results in failure.
3. Ground STFs are often considerably longer, in large part due to factors like "number of enemies that must be killed" and "distance you have to cover relative to your speed". This means that Generation ADHD finds it difficult to focus, as they have the attention spans of epileptic hamsters and bladders the size of walnuts.
4. Ground STFs drop loot of inferior value. Ground equipment is generally poorly valued relative to its space counterparts and demanded in far reduced quantity even at the high end. A ship can use over a half a dozen guns. A man can only use two, and he's going to prefer set piece items anyway, so much of this stuff has little to no demand.
5. Unlike pre-S7, there is now a hard limit on how quickly an individual can usefully gain anything: You can't digest your marks any faster, so after the first STF, you're pretty much done and there is little incentive to keep going, unlike S6, where STFers would often hit them back to back, bouncing from STF to STF in search of the elusive Proto Tech. Now? You do your STF, you get banned from that STF...you've eaten your fill, you're done for the day.
6. Finally, to top it off, ground STF are less popular because they are less popular. This may seem circular, but the fact of the matter is that no one queues because no one queues. So when you queue for a ground STF, and it doesn't pop, eventually you just stop bothering...or even if you do, you queue for another space one at the same time...and it pops, taking you away from the ground one.

This sorry state of affairs has now existed for sometime, and given the churn rate of Generation ADHD, this means there now exists an entire generation of STFers who have never really touched ground, have no idea how to play it, and often simply don't.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 794
# 48
08-15-2013, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doffingcomrade View Post
Elite Ground STFs have considerably less popularity for several reasons.
<< snipped list of very true statements to save space >>

This sorry state of affairs has now existed for sometime, and given the churn rate of Generation ADHD, this means there now exists an entire generation of STFers who have never really touched ground, have no idea how to play it, and often simply don't.
To add to your excellent list:

8. Ground STFs are significantly more difficult, especially the optional components. In space the optionals are typically just time gated. On the ground they are things like "you have 10 seconds after crossing this invisible line to prevent a civilian from being killed. Complete this 6 times, and one single failure blows the optional for everyone". Given that the line in question is honestly invisible, and there is no in-game text to help you figure this out, you can imagine how rarely the optional succeeds.

9. Ground bosses can be impossible for certain teams to defeat. This is mostly a reference to Armek of Borg and the Queen, but can happen on any of them. Unlike space where you can wear down the enemy by repeatedly respawning and rejoining, all of the ground battles have a lockout, so if one team member is killed they cannot come back to help. If all are killed the fight starts over from the beginning with the boss at full strength.

10. Ground Objectives require coordination between multiple players, not just straight damage. For example, protect 4 locations that are out of firing range from each other while simultaneously activating glowies in the right sequence.

11. Ground enemies that cannot be defeated by damage alone. For example, the turrets that have invincible shields and someone needs to walk inside of them and activate a bomb while other players distract its fire. Otherwise it resets itself to full health and you start over every 30 seconds until you get it correct.

12. Ground enemies that invalidate entire builds. Armek of Borg, for example, has chain damage powers that are capable of team wipes if an engineer sets up turrets or mortars.

There is nothing remotely like any of this in space. Many people just don't want to learn how to handle the ground missions because the level of frustration is enormous. In space you can try a normal difficulty and learn as you go. On the ground, it's nearly impossible to learn by trial and error, someone has to teach you. And really, how many people are willing to listen?
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