Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 11
08-22-2013, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by lordhavelock View Post
what he said.
....less currencies they said....
Joined 06.10
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PvP 2012-2013
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# 12
08-22-2013, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by jjumetley View Post
I just realized the tone of my post might have been taken as angry or something but I assure you it was not ... I also appreciate your efforts to come up with a sound solution to the problem.
I caught what I thought could be a hint of snippyness, but I tired to assume there wasn't any, didn't take it personally, I made effort not to bite back. It's all good my friend!

My efforts/thoughts might not be perfect. Just MY ideas. I'm glad it's opening up discussion on the topic

Originally Posted by jjumetley View Post
...First I... then I start... One day I do... the next day...
I figured it was something like that, but >shrug< how was I to know... Maybe you don't work or have other commitments and can play 10hrs every day (Lucky! )

But how you talk about your latest two characters doing Nukara, and others already having Rom/Omega... I was the same way on several toons. So it sounds like you actually could get some benefit out of the discounts. And if such discounts did exist you might find it beneficial to stagger your toons more... Level-up a couple of them, fall back on others until they got the discount, etc.

As for commodities, since there's never enough storage/inventory to pre-buy everything, nor to port it around from one toon to another, I just make sure all my toons have a couple million credits on-hand each and they go buy 100-1,000 of whatever resource (be it commodities or hypos or whatever) they need at a time... I also try to stagger it so one character doesn't need the vendor today, but another does, then a third does tomorrow... So I'm not just spending an hour vendor-visiting on all my toons on one day...

Originally Posted by gavinruneblade View Post
I have over 10 alts and ... I estimate I'll have all of them at t5 somewhere around Feb 2014 and I'm cool with that.
I think I did something similar... I quickly leveled my main couple toons each time a Rep came out... The others I do... whenever I do them. If it takes me until next year to finish... So be it. I'm not in a rush.

(Though lately I've had a lot of spare time and actually have made a ton of progress... I probably will be done with all my toons in ~1mo, unless they release something new to do back on my main toons.)

Originally Posted by gavinruneblade View Post
...I think Star Wars did something fascinating with Alts. Are you aware of the Legacy system for it?
No, I hadn't heard how SW was running their system, but I think I get the theory. I'm not really a gamer with my STO addiction being the exception. In my youth I was a comic book geek, so when I got burned out on STO (twice now: During the 2011 Content Drought (just after S4), and during S6), I gave Champions Online a go. I still occasionally go play CO, but not often (as they're in a drought too, last I checked).

I love CO's Heirloom Gear! I never bother with gear while I rank up (and I have way more alts in CO than I do here in STO), I have a full Heirloom set that gets passed around to whichever toon I'm using and when I logout they stop by the Account Bank and drop it off for the next toon. It's brilliant! Only when they reach L40 (End Game in CO), do I start working on build-specific purple gear.

Originally Posted by gavinruneblade View Post
...Discounts are a bad idea no matter how you apply them. account bound gear is a bad idea unless it's mark 11 tops...
Can you explain a bit more about what you think is a bad idea about Discounts and Account Bound Mk XII gear, please?

Originally Posted by daveyny View Post
I just wish They would stop with all the individual types of Marks and just let us play the game the way we want...
Amen, Brother, Amen!

It's pre-F2P all over again. Remember when we had dozens of different Badges and Marks and Emblems, and some were for different tiers and some for Exploration Gear and some for PvP Gear, etc. etc. It was a mess. Then with F2P they consolidated all those currencies into the Almighty Dilithium with the express idea to keep things simple. Now we have more currencies than we did before.

And before anyone goes and argues the definition/semantics of the term "currency" I'm using to mean anything I "earn" that I use to "buy" another item. I'm considering Marks, Lobi, GPL, Dilithium, etc. etc... Leave it at that.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,792
# 13
08-22-2013, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by z3ndor99 View Post
Hey, right first off good ideas, secondly if you listen to priority one podcast ( legacy of Vegas ), captain geko said that season 8 would bring a new rep ( voth based ) and, this rep's endgame missions would reward everything you need to complete the projects. So you go in do the daily stf and it gives you marks which you use to fill up the projects, there is no other requirements just the marks ( so no ec, no hypos ) ,he also goes on to say if this way is embraced by the players then the old rep's would be retrofitted. So what do you guys think?
I hadn't heard the P1 Podcast, I've been too busy to listen (if only I could get a transcript... I got time to read things). But hey, that sounds like a fantastic idea! Assuming it's straight up... It sounds too good to be true, and/or has some catch/gimmick that will make it more complicated than it should be... Sorry, I tend to get cynical about Cryptic's Great Ideas, sometimes. lol

Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
My biggest gripe with the rep system is actually the way we accumulate experience. You have to log in and run these projects over and over again and if you want to get any of the gear you have to delay your leveling while using at least one of the slots for that project (be it a piece of equipment or a store).
The day-to-day log in is most certainly in Cryptics design. They want you to log in every day. Studies show the more they get a player coming back to the game (in this case, daily) the more likely the player will spend money. It's very intentional, and that part won't change.

I do agree it sucks that buying gear/unlocking stores slows down daily progression. It's one reason I've learned I just don't bother with any gear/purchases until I get to T5. Only then do I take a look at my build and what's now available to me, and spend my resources to get it. This is especially so, since we get that nice boon of Marks/Dil when reaching T5, it goes to pay for the gear (though more mission running is usually still required). Plus, then I don't "waste" my time/resources with Mk X or XI gear, and just get Mk XII.

Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
1) Mark boxes from all missions would be nice. I like this idea and hope Cryptic will give it serious consideration in the future whether the new implementation they've promised for Season 8 works as well as they hope or not.
Agreed, 1,000,000%.

Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
3) Alt-Friendliness ... once one character of that faction reached T5 all the other characters in that same faction would be automatically advanced to 100,000 Rep XP...
So you're basically opting for a variant of my XP Grant idea, but you're narrowing it down by faction, and wanting to give the whole 100k. I'm ok with the faction-specific, basically encouraging each player to get at least one toon to T5 in each faction "the hard way" - I like that. But I just can't get on board with auto-promoting all five tiers to every toon after the first... Letting them start at T2 or T3 seems reasonable... Maybe even T4 (which is still only ~2/3 the way through). The perks given for having Rep are worthy of some significant effort.

Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
...Making everything account bound instead of character kind of reduces the impetus to do the rep climb on them. On the other hand another poster suggested a "Mk XI" cutoff that makes a lot of sense...
Agreed. If I could buy Mk XI or Mk XII gear for my Alts from my Main, I probably wouldn't Rep level all of them. I'd still do several, since I think the some of the passives are worthwhile, but it's likely I'd stop at T2 or T4 across the board.

Thanks everyone for the conversation/discussion.

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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 14
08-22-2013, 06:03 PM
I'd be happy if they could at least give account-wide gear that we still have to get marks for but don't have to wait months when we've done it 500 times already.
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# 15
08-22-2013, 07:17 PM
Well seeing as Cryptic like monetizing everything why not have a full rep unlock for 350Zen per character with you needing to have already completed to T5 the associated rep on at least 1 character.

So character 1 has reached Omega T5, character 2 hasn't, you buy it and use on character 2 and get T5 omega rep with no grinding.

I like the idea of an XP grant, especially if it means starting at T2/3 on each rep and only slogging from there. Still for me the biggest gripe is how it wants you to log in every day. The more someone tries to force me to do something like that the more I will not want to.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
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# 16
08-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
Well seeing as Cryptic like monetizing everything why not have a full rep unlock for 350Zen per character...
I shouldn't think they'll ever let you buy full tiers, and I honestly hope they don't. What I do expect, and frankly I'm surprised we haven't seen already, are some sort of "Rep XP" booster or possibly a "Rep Mark" booster something like the existing Skill XP and CXP boosters. These would be either directly in C-Store or in a Lock Box.

Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
...Still for me the biggest gripe is how it wants you to log in every day. The more someone tries to force me to do something like that the more I will not want to.
Yeah, I get it... Logging in every day can be a chore, but I doubt you'll ever see that change. Like I was saying above, they want ("need"?) you to log in every day. The more a player plays, the more they (are likely too) pay.

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
# 17
08-22-2013, 07:59 PM
I agree with most of your comments Havelock.

I like the idea of offering marks as mission awards once a player reaches lvl 50. I have 40 alts myself & have never finished any of the faction story lines. Since I reach lvl 50 long before the story line ends, I stop & go STFin. I would however go back & finish the episodes if mark were rewarded. It's a good incentive imo.

I'll stand by my request for an a/c wide Rep system unlock however. One toon has to complete the entire Rep system, thereafter all Alts have immediate access to Rep gear. I'd even forego any Rep discount, pay full price, & purchase more Rep gear if I could equip my Alts immediately without having to unlock the Rep store for every Alt first.

If Cryptic is adamant about not allowing the Rep system to be an a/c wide unlock, I would suggest that the time (& costs) to complete the Rep system be reduced. If the Rep system is another sink for player's consumables/currency, & I believe it is, make it easier to purchase items. I like Rep gear, it's useful. I completed the Rep system on only one toon myself however. I refuse to complete it on any other Alts as silent protest for the time & costs it takes. The current state of the Rep system PUNISHES players with Alts and it shouldn't. It comes down to a simple economic principle - make an item easier to purchase, & more you'll sell.
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Join Date: May 2013
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# 18
08-22-2013, 08:12 PM
I agree with everything the OP wrote. Doing rep on 1 character is acceptable, 2 is not so bad. However when you get to the third it simply saps your will to live. Ok thats going too far but it is seriously mind numbing doing the same old STFs over and over again.

However, one point I would like to make is that its not the rep system thats the issue in itself, thats merely a symptom of the real problem, the whole endgame.

Lack of variety, more is needed.

4 missions fighting Borg in space one of which is still bugged unless they've sorted Hive Onslaught lately. Another 4 ground, one of which is also bugged. I like the ground missions but they're not exactly wildly popular. Azure Nebula is tolerable, Vault Ensnared is good, Colony Invasion is fast and furious and quick and easy. Minetrap is awesome, so many ways it can go wrong but the reward is pretty decent for time invested. I also enjoy the Elachi station invasion one and Starbase Incursion but there needs to be others.

2 more ground PVE games, Breaking the Planet and the Big Dig. Does anyone ever play those anymore? Ground Nukara missions now no longer a need to go to Nukara, just queue for it instead. Plus its kind of meh anyway given that people queue for it without equipping an EV suit.

Federation get Starbase 24, KDF get diddly squat. Why not do a KDF Outpost 42 with the Federation being the attacking force. Or at the very least create a new joint Starbase mission that everyone can join, defending against the Breen or Undine or somebody.

KDF and Federation working together in Omega Force yet still can't team up for joint missions on Defera. I mean seriously sort that out its a nightmare for KDF players to get a team for a hard run sometimes.

More enemies to test our mettle against.

Theres a wealth of useful material in Trek and its not being used. DS9 and the war against the Dominion. Why can't we have some large fleet battle PVE event to simulate that period? It can all be explained by being a tactical simulation in a holodeck anyway. Klingon Civil War between Gowron and House of Duras backed Romulans. Its all there if you choose to use it.

Put the Krenim timeship in there or the Husnock warship and let a fleet of players try to bring it down. Just do something to mix it up a little. Plus make some of them seriously hard that they require tactics and class diversity to succeed. Sure some people will whine but the veteran players will thank you for it.

Factional Rep for one and all.

The issue I think was allowing people to do more than one Rep. They should have split it up given each character a choice Romulan, Omega, MACO/KHG, Nukara etc with different faction specific rewards to promote diversity and probably different end game STFs or mission requirements. At least that way you'd be more inclined to roll a new alt to see something different and try out new skills.

Too late now I guess.

Anyway sorry to go off point a bit OP but thats my issue with the game even though I like it a lot. Not enough variation and enjoyable ways to earn marks. Plus there really is no actual end goal to achieve.

Its a perpetual quest for better gear to do the same old events over and over, to get even better gear to.....
Mr Spock would say that is very illogical considering you've done those events hundreds of times before with bog standard gear.

Sure its an MMO and they all have an element of grind but some things can go to far. Especially if S8 brings yet another rep system for us to jump through hoops.

Its also not just the rep system, the fleet system is equally busted, timegated and an excercise in moving sliders to the right. Don't get me started talking about PVP I would love to do that too if it had some actual balance, a ranking system for fair matches and a real purpose in actually playing it with real rewards.

Anyway said enough, sorry guys and apologies for the wall of text.

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# 19
08-23-2013, 03:10 AM
I feel that there should be some account based accolades and the rep system is definitely a prime candidate.

Also to avoid the alt grind which kills alt toon play and most importantly it reduces sales that STO would get from new faction/servant race releases. I have not, nor will i get Romulan ships because the rep system prevents me from being competitive on the Romulan toon.

My prediction is they will make an attempt at fixing it, now whether they take the dilithium mine approach with a token effort or give something more substantial is yet to be seen. At least with fleet holdings there are little issues with alt fleets similar to toons.

My solution to alts is a token each time you complete a Tier in a reputation system. You get a token. That Token is account bound, that token can be slotted into a rep mission on another toon and grant that same level to the second toon and completion of that accelerated tier mission grants another token. This allows a daisy chain through all the toons and while kinda tedious it is much less tedious than the current system and I don't think it would be a programing obstacle because they are creating an item that is account bound, using it as an input for another toons mission that grants a number of XP and tier access without them figuring out how to implement an faction/account wide based rep system from the ashes of a toon based rep system.

At least it seems to be a sensible and respectable work around that would not garner a lot of complaint from the rational player base.
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# 20
08-23-2013, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by tostrekkie7 View Post
I agree with most of your comments Havelock...
Thanks, and it sounds like we're on a very similar page...

Originally Posted by chris919uk View Post
I agree with everything the OP wrote...
Again, thanks for another vote of confidence.

Heh... Ok, so I don't disagree with most your comments, but they do go a bit off topic. It's true the game can use all kinds of more content, and certainly there's enough Star Trek Lore to draw upon. Cryptic is/has been adding more content pretty regularly this last year, certainly way more than they did in 2011, for example (thinks of that Great Content Drought >shudder<). I actually expect them to continue to do so. Maybe some day all those cool-sounding adventures you talk about will make it in-game.

As I mention in the OP though, being able to advance Rep (and Fleet, for that matter) via ALL existing content, including/especially existing Story Missions would be an awesome step in the right direction.

Originally Posted by milanvorius View Post
I feel that there should be some account based accolades and the rep system is definitely a prime candidate.

Also to avoid the alt grind which kills alt toon play and most importantly it reduces sales that STO would get from new faction/servant race releases. I have not, nor will i get Romulan ships because the rep system prevents me from being competitive on the Romulan toon...
I wonder myself how many sales they loose because of the grind. Sales of additional races, costumes, character slots, and (most importantly) ships...

Personally, I had too many characters (~23) that I recently pruned back to 14... What was "too many" about it was that I didn't want to have to grind that much. I kept the ones that were already well along on the grind. There's high probability that I would have eventually purchased ships for each of those toons. Of my 14 now, I only need 2-3 more ships (if I don't decide to take something I already have). Add to that I'll likely create 1-2 more Rom toons, but that'll be it (at least until there's another faction). Meaning fewer sales, at least from me.


I haven't seen the numbers, but I would bet the Bean Counters have factored that in, and figure they get more sales from the hamster wheel grind of the Rep than without it...

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