Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,138
# 21
08-26-2013, 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgta1967 View Post
has nothing to do with balance..... beams are beams...and cannons are cannons.
Eh, not really, as far as most people care they are the same thing and are chosen solely based on potential DPS. Hence my proposal to make them truly different, so that people choose them for reasons other than just potential DPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
In addition, the game's overabundance of defenses, namely in the passive department, need to be seriously toned down.
This is why I suggested giving cannons more hull damage. If they get close enough they should be able to kill you through shields. I think this is the biggest challenge though, it makes certain types of energy weapons less powerful and other types more powerful, which is a problem. Also, decloaking surprise buttsex. Still, I would like to see assault craft be able to kill target through shields.

I'd be fine with going back to the old days too

Last edited by ursusmorologus; 08-26-2013 at 03:01 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,197
# 22
08-26-2013, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
.... as far as most people care they are the same thing and are chosen solely based on potential DPS.....
are you sure ? have you asked every player in STO this ?

I'd assume a lot of people choose because of how canon the weapons look on their ship.... or they like the color.... or the sound .... perhaps how they choose to fly while in combat .... or they were the ones available at the time or for the money they had....I even have alternate sets of weapons that I can swap out as I feel like it.


you really should generalize 'everyone' into a defense. It's just not true.... not everyone has the min-max mentality when playing this game.
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,138
# 23
08-26-2013, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgta1967 View Post
you really should generalize 'everyone' into a defense. It's just not true.... not everyone has the min-max mentality when playing this game.
First of all, don't put 'everyone' into quotes when I didnt even use the word. Propping up a strawman just so you can knock it over is poor debate form anyway, but faking quotes is downright lame.

Second, you are assuming that I havent asked why people use them, or that I havent considered the reasons why I dont use them more often (I do use them on a vette). I've talked about it with a lot of people. Maybe you should try it too.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,197
# 24
08-26-2013, 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
First of all, don't put 'everyone' into quotes when I didnt even use the word. Propping up a strawman just so you can knock it over is poor debate form anyway, but faking quotes is downright lame.

Second, you are assuming that I havent asked why people use them, or that I havent considered the reasons why I dont use them more often (I do use them on a vette). I've talked about it with a lot of people. Maybe you should try it too.
dude...

"...." = these are quotes

'....' = these are just apostrophes that I used to mark a word I believed relevant
( how about I change it to |....| ?).


but go ahead... I' m cool with what your saying...

how about this if you are wanting a direct quote:
"as far as most people care they are the same thing ..."

or even better...this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
...as far as most people care they are the same thing and are chosen solely based on potential DPS....

this is what you generalized (in quotation form).....

generalizing 'most people' ..... it's not good form to falsely represent the player base.

better ?
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----

Last edited by cgta1967; 08-26-2013 at 03:41 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 224
# 25
08-26-2013, 03:52 PM
You can negate beams drain at very high weapon power while cannons are stick to the 125 cap. Plus beams damage decrease less with range.

Weapons are fairly balanced right now.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,125
# 26
08-26-2013, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by this1isavailable View Post
You can negate beams drain at very high weapon power while cannons are stick to the 125 cap. Plus beams damage decrease less with range.

Weapons are fairly balanced right now.
The weapons aren't the issue.

The issue is power.

When STO came out, DHCs firing in CRF drained your weapons power within less than a handful of seconds, but the damage potential then is the same as now. People were stressing about EPS skill, and even Escorts were trying to stuff EPS Manifold Consoles into their (once) meager ENG Console Slots to try to speed up weapon power recovery, because it was slow.

Today, nobody really cares about weapons drain. Power recovery is so much faster today than it was at STO's release, that it's almost instantaneous. That is one of the single biggest factors as to why everybody says DHCs are overpowered. That is why DHCs are firing away in near 100% gametime. That is why Escorts rule this game now.

Power recovery was the single biggest roadblock from Escorts, or any high damage build, from totally dominating the game. But that was long ago.

Reintroduce the old power drain mechanic, and I assure you, more weapons will be viable. Far better that then "DHCs over anything" (or for those paying attention, Dual Beam Banks + Beam Overload over anything").

Back then, if players wanted higher, steadier damage output, they had to sacrifice alot of console space to get better power recovery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lystent View Post
Escorts don't use many beams because they are allowed to use dual cannons. dual cannons trade firing angle for damage. Coupled with the high turn rates of escorts, they have the highest DPS potential. Imbalance? No. Escorts are commonly referred to as "glass cannons" because they the most fragile ships of the range. In essence, the trade off HP for DPS.

If you stunt the one asset escorts have, escorts would become much weaker than the other two ship classes.
Escorts (and certain Cruiser hybrids now) are not your typical "Glass Cannons" in STO. "Glass Cannons" in other titles imply great damage potential but also suffer from being fragile. This is not the case in STO.

Escorts are now very close to Cruiser hull points.

Escorts can approach 0.9 or 0.99 shield mods, while Cruisers sit at 1.0.

Escorts get defense bonus from simply moving. Even more the faster they go.

Escorts and certain Cruisers (with LtCdr TAC BOFF stations) can access Attack Pattern Omega. APO is the single biggest buffing / immunity in this game. It makes you move faster, grants immunity to tractor beams... there's so much that APO does, it's ridiculous. Just read it here.

So please, tell me how Escorts are weak and fragile. Only player incompetence will get you killed in an Escort.

Last edited by warmaker001b; 08-26-2013 at 04:41 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 659
# 27
08-26-2013, 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post


Escorts (and certain Cruiser hybrids now) are not your typical "Glass Cannons" in STO. "Glass Cannons" in other titles imply great damage potential but also suffer from being fragile. This is not the case in STO.

Escorts are now very close to Cruiser hull points.

Escorts can approach 0.9 or 0.99 shield mods, while Cruisers sit at 1.0.

Escorts get defense bonus from simply moving. Even more the faster they go.

Escorts and certain Cruisers (with LtCdr TAC BOFF stations) can access Attack Pattern Omega. APO is the single biggest buffing / immunity in this game. It makes you move faster, grants immunity to tractor beams... there's so much that APO does, it's ridiculous. Just read it here.

So please, tell me how Escorts are weak and fragile. Only player incompetence will get you killed in an Escort.
And that, boys and girls, is why this is escorts online.



For future reference:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgta1967 View Post
"...." = these are quotes
Those are double quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgta1967 View Post
'....' = these are just apostrophes that I used to mark a word I believed relevant
Those are single quotes.

I trust you'll now be able to do your own research into their differences.

And now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Last edited by tinkerstorm; 08-26-2013 at 05:22 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 122
# 28
08-26-2013, 05:47 PM
I think a few things need to be done to help a balance.

Power usage needs to be more significant. If you have the right skills and place energy usage on "weapons", it's pretty much impossible to go under 100 even when firing full.

Plus, escorts need to become a little more fragile. People will complain, but really, it's the only way to encourage people to play the other classes.

My engineer can stay alive in an escort just as well as he can stay alive in cruisers.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 29
08-26-2013, 07:01 PM
First of all, the parity of the idfference between escorts, science ship and cruisers, should be weapons. its not like they doubled the hull material. the differences in the ships is actually kind of ridiculous.

now that being said, the power system in this game is wonkly too, for example i deiced to test a theory in my corvette, my intrepid and my galaxy-r.

Full weapons power in each. 4 DHC's and 3 turrets out DPS'ed the other two, with the cruiser coming in next with 6 beams and 2 torpedoes, last place was science with 6 beams.

when you get into firing arc's i will list by lowest BASE dps up.

turrets 132 base 360 degree firing arc - 99 dpv (-8 power)
beams 176 base 250 degree firing arc - 220 dpv (-10 power)
single cannon 212 base 180 degree firing arc - 159 dpv (-10 power)
dual beam bank 229 base 90 degree firing arc - 287 dpv (-10 power)
dual cannon 256 base 45 degree arc - 192 dpv (-10 power)
dual heavy cannon 256 base 45 degree arc - 384 dpv (-12 power)

so the weapons are pretty close in the dps ranges, the primary difference ends up being the power levels and settings.

pushing power to the max i can get abot 1300 BEFORE draining on my DHC's, but only about 950 on my beams.

now yes the drain on DHC's is a little steeper at -12 with beams pulling -10
Don't forget first weapon doesn't pull power.
so add it up, 8 beams at -10 is -70(6 for sci -50)
4 DHC's at -12 is -36 plus the turrets at -8 is -24 total -60

now what if as beams are in fact a tad weaker they where dropped to -8 power you would end up with (8 beams at -8 is -56 power, 6 beams at - 8 would be -40 power)

i think changing the power drain levels up a little bit would help even things out and balance a bit.

bear in mind cruisers do their best damage in broadsides, and escorts do theirs in a frontal attack, hence escorts going for hit and runs but escorts have the turn rate to accomplish that.

so think about all that in you epeen contests about who gets what when, a simple change in the power level could in fact bring beams into the fold of being closer to on par with DHC's.(still behind but a little closer{and science ships would REALLY benefit}to their extra muscled counterparts)

also bear in mind i fly everything, on every type of toon beacuse i want to be fairish and less bias. but i dont fly knlingon as i find the playstyle and ships unappealing.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 989
# 30
08-26-2013, 07:10 PM
Sort of a tangential point, but this thread is a prime example of why constructive criticism isn't as common as many of us would like; people with ideas, who put considerable thought behind their suggestions, are immediately treated to childish replies that offer nothing helpful at all. It's ironic, considering some of the unhelpful posts are being made by people who have previously complained about non-constructive critical posts in other threads.

Calling the OP's ideas "stupid," while offering no counter arguments is silly.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:46 PM.