Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 61
08-28-2013, 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgta1967 View Post
cruisers dont suck at all IMO, I rather enjoy them....but I also know that they have a purpose in starfleet other than one on one warfare.... just like science ships are intended for something other than 1 on 1 conflict against escorts..



escorts excel in one on one PVP because they are made exclusively for head to head war .... science ships not so much as they are for messing the other guys systems up and cruisers are more for 'I can take a hit while you guys blast em" teamplay than solo in fights.

If you want to excel in 1v1 PVP....why would you even consider using a science ship or a cruiser? PVP is 100% about kill the enemy conflict, and killing the other guy with deadly force as quickly as possible.

so yeah.... if you are having a hard time in PVP.....get the biggest best fastest most maneuverable weapon, which an escort with forward facing cannons seems to provide rather well.


"would you take on the USS Arizona with the RV Calypso ?"

.

1v1 PvP shows nothing, ever. !v! is a decent way to test you ship's build but outside of that it's not worth much.

Now that being said PvE, I can dish fair amounts of punishment in any ship. that being said i can dish way more in my escort than i can in a cruiser or a science vessel.

The reason for this is say you are running an all beam boat. At full broadside
(all 8 beams frining) you lose a chunk of -70 weapons power, and beams have less damage per capita then canons.

If you are running the Norm for escorts, you most likely have 4 DHC's and 3 Turrets. For references sake.

At optimum attack, full frontal, everything firing. You have a loss of ONLY -60 on a weapon that dishes out more damge per volley.

so dont be a jerk. be a reasonable human being and don't force your opinion on others.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 292
# 62
08-28-2013, 08:07 AM
take pvp out of the thought process for a moment, and realize that escorts have edged other ships out of pve play too. the same way engineers have been edged out.

The simple truth is that escorts are no longer the glass cannons, are they battle cruisers, or carriers, not quite, but the differences are marginal in the end, especially with the defense bonus stacked on. They can stack the same level of hull resistance.

But that's a escorts vs all other ship classes argument, not a cannons vs beams one.

Same way that engineers not having a res debuff, or damage buff makes them do les damage then the other captains, its a separate issue.

So cannons V.s beams comes down to trying to put them in as much of a vacuum as possible first.

By design beams are supposed to trade a wide firing arc, originally higher then the current 250 degrees, 280 originally I want to say, with similar energy drain to dual cannons. And they do, which means their easier to keep on target, thus easier to sustain damage with.

Turrets are the easiest to keep on target, and DHC's the hardest.

The original power drain mechanics also helped balance this out, each weapon as it fired its cycle, drained x power, eps skills would cause power to recharge, and with beams on a 4 sec firing cycle, they would drain 10 to fire for 4 secs, opposed to cannons and DHC's on a 3 sec cycle, draining 10 and 12 respectively.

So what did this mean, well beams cycled slower, which meant more time to recover energy lost, before the next cycle started, and cannons faster, which meant less time to recover.

Then they changed it to a flat system, the weapons tie up X amount of power for their firing cycle, then release it back to the pool. so no more staggering weapons fire to change how your drains affecting you.

I would argue that we should also look at the Boff skills specifically for each weapon group too.

Rapid fire, which spikes cannon dps on a single target for minimal extra weapon power draw.

Spread fire, which cuase the weapons to fire in a cone, inside their arc, and X number of targets, for minimal energy draw.

Beam overload, which does massive damage to a single target, but comes with a heft energy drain, a battery can put that back its not held power.

and Fire at will, which causes the beams to strike x number of targets in their arcs, randomly picking targets, and comes with a heft power drain.

Now in a vacuum the only skills that are truly out of sync are FaW and SF, cannon spread fire is vastly superior to fire at will in almost all cases, with a few notable exceptions which have more to do with beams wider firing arcs. Fixable mostly by making FaW drain less energy.

But we don't play in a vacuum, and these weapons have to be mounted on something, and they have player skills backing them, gear sets, and doffs, and boff powers outside of just attacks.

With doffs and gear sets like the borg set, its possible to all but negate weapon power drain, marginalizing it as a problem no matter what ship your in or what weapons you use. So for the most part throw weapon power drain out the window as a balancing source in the current set up.

So firing arc, well this would be a problem except escorts have no problem keeping anything in arc, no matter what they use, same can be said for scimitars using cloaked fire or that have their ambush buff up for dropping cloak. But that's a problem with turn rates, not the weapons them selves or their arcs.

So really the problem comes back to power drain, and the ability to all but negate it, which used to be a engineer selling point with nadion inversion. Fixing the disparity between escorts and cruisers/larger ships wont fix the power drain problems with the weapons, changing the arcs, wont fix the power problems.

As for how to fix them, well one way would be to get rid of all the doffs, and set bonus's that negate them, but that's not gunna happen, we all know that. So if they wont do that then we can alter the energy drain of the weapons them selves, lower beams and turrets drains, this looks like it would help, but effectively with boffs, and or set up, every weapon basically drains 2 power anyways. so while it looks good on paper, as soon as you add in the drain mitigation mechanics it stops fixing the disparity.

My suggestion, alter how much energy drain can be negated, either across all weapons, or by type, set cannons so that their power drain can only be mitigated by say, half, beams and turrets to 1/3rd, or down to the current 2. that would leave cannons and DHC's at 5/6 respectively, which while greatly reducing their power draw should still have it impact their dps like it was originally supposed too, but their faster fire cycle still means they end up making more use of the draw reduction buff every time its up.

it wouldn't change them on ships without those doffs and sets, but it would on the side that seems to be the problem.

Last edited by verline1; 08-28-2013 at 08:18 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 292
# 63
08-28-2013, 09:02 AM
and sorry that's a bit of a wall of text, typing at work, between calls, so it grew a bit larger then I expected.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,197
# 64
08-28-2013, 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnshadow27 View Post
.... say you are running an all beam boat. ....


so dont be a jerk. be a reasonable human being and don't force your opinion on others.
that's just it... I would never run a full beam boat... that is just a min/max mentality in my opinion.



and going the ad-hominem route doesn't contribute to discussions at all my friend.

I hit a nerve by stating my opinion , sounds like you didnt like it and took it personally perhaps?, I get it and I am truly sorry my personal opinion rubbed you wrong..... no need to try and disembowel me for it though. therefore I forgive you too.
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----

Last edited by cgta1967; 08-28-2013 at 09:26 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 65
08-29-2013, 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgta1967 View Post
that's just it... I would never run a full beam boat... that is just a min/max mentality in my opinion.



and going the ad-hominem route doesn't contribute to discussions at all my friend.

I hit a nerve by stating my opinion , sounds like you didnt like it and took it personally perhaps?, I get it and I am truly sorry my personal opinion rubbed you wrong..... no need to try and disembowel me for it though. therefore I forgive you too.
Correct, i dont run all beams either.

But YOUR opinion is there is no problem, any problem someone has can be mitigated by using different weapons and a different ship. This is as previous people have said not a solution. YOU are just in denial of the fact.

I also did not "disembowel" you. my statement of dont be a jerk is both simple and a request.

So say you are running exactly even on weapons. That is still an even power draw. Without a way to get closer to the output that an escort can do. Especailly without say a BRF(Beam Rapid Fire) and the BFAW targeting everything and its brother severely limiting th actual damage done.

So you are entitled to your opinion, but saying your opinion is correct above everyone else's is a jerk move. It's a discussion.

and i believe someones sig line says it best "If your post is anything like 'ihave a sandwich so you can't be starving' you should rethink your post"
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,197
# 66
08-29-2013, 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnshadow27 View Post
.....YOU are just in denial of the fact.



...I also did not "disembowel" you. my statement of dont be a jerk is both simple and a request.

...but saying your opinion is correct above everyone else's is a jerk move.
dude...stop with the wrongly assumed conclusions already....

and the "i didnt call you a jerk, you jerk" is a bit blatant ...

.
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 67
08-30-2013, 02:23 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!

Last edited by bluegeek; 08-30-2013 at 08:48 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,197
# 68
08-30-2013, 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnshadow27 View Post
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
.


feel better now ? let it all out ....

.

can we get back to the thread topic over the ad-hominem now ?

.
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----

Last edited by bluegeek; 08-30-2013 at 08:48 AM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:04 AM.