Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 29
# 71
09-10-2013, 12:16 PM
I debated putting this comment in, and I am prepared to get flamed for it, but here goes.
The Battlestar Galactica reminds me of when I used to play the game Rebellion. When you played rebellion you got as many fighters as you could. I used to beat the computer on the hardest level as the rebels, not by having huge amounts of capital ships, such as the Mon Calamari Cruiser, but by having huge amounts of Alliance carriers with 60 B-Wing Fighters and 60 A-Wing fighters would crush the Imperial Fleets. To me, and I am expressly stating this as my opinion only, this is where Star Trek Online is going with all of its Carriers.
Now do not get me wrong, a lot of people now a days can relate to Aircraft Carriers. And the Aircraft Carrier is the focal point for the modern navy. So I can see people thinking that carriers are the end all be all. And people did watch Battlestar Galactica which you are trying to Build.However, lets look at some problems with the idea.
First, the Aircraft carrier is relatively new to naval operations. You have hundreds of years of naval warfare where bigger is better. More guns, more armor, etc. The wars were fought on a two dimensional basis. Similar to Spock's comments to Kirk He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking. No one thought of ships shooting from under the sea and no one thought of ships shooting from above. Ships cannot fly. That changed with the introduction of the submarine and the aircraft carrier. The sub went underwater and the aircraft was in the air. Without a lesson in World War II aircraft carrier, its logical how the Aircraft carrier become the lead.

In Space, and Star Trek were back to pre-world war I. Why? Because everyone flies, everyone is the same. So you are back to more armor, and bigger guns to penetrate that armor. As the guns are powered through the Warp Drive (aka Star Trek I), you need even bigger engines to power the weapons. Battleships used to have such heavy armor that the guns on the smaller ships were probably not going to penetrate that armor.That has been the entire Star Trek design since TOS. Smaller ships growing ever bigger. The Constitution becoming the Enterprise refit. The introduction of the Excelsior, etc. If you could get all that firepower on a ship the size of the defiant and power it, it's most likely going to be more cost efficient to mass product defiant ships then building one huge galaxy class. So yes the galaxy class should have more teeth. This leads to the Sovereign and finally the huge Odyssey. In my opinion this is a logical progression of ships in the Star Trek universe and based on logical naval historical progression. When I see a Jem'Hadar Dreadnaught (which I have, but alas no OP bug ships, unfortunately), I ask with all the advanced firepower that a new Odyssey has, with all the engines powering the weapons why it cannot one shot the fighters. You cannot tell me these tiny fighters have the engines to power enough shields to protect them and still have enough power to damage and penetrate an Odyssey. If they could, why even build huge odyssey ships? What does it give the Federation that smaller ships do not? In other words, why in over 200 years of Federation shipbuilding were they not buidling carriers the whole time?

The problem is most people do not read or care about history and see Aircraft Carriers, Top Gun, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica and somehow want that in a Star Trek Universe. And of course, cryptic wants to make money, so they will build whatever makes them money.

I am against your idea however:

Carriers have no place in Star Trek. My Opinion, but even if you do not agree, you can see my logic above.

IF carriers were to be in the game, and unfortunately, they are, then the Federation should have whatever anyone else has. It?s pretty simple, whatever another company or country makes, others will copy. That does not mean the Klingon version cannot be superior, obviously the US has superior aircraft carriers now to anyone else, but the concept could be the same. Nothing wrong with a Federation skinned carrier with 2 pet slots. But hull, energy, whatever, could be weaker than the KDF to make the KDF superior.

Upgrade the bad guys. The Borg is supposed to be super adaptive. So, they should have more than 1 weapon firing. They shoot 1 weapon at the highest threat now, let the borg be updated so there shooting at all the fighters at once if the carrier is the main aggregate. They should have specific AI routine against carriers.

Last edited by skullleaderrfbs; 09-10-2013 at 01:20 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 72
09-10-2013, 09:41 PM
Wow very well thought out.

Your right thought, while i love my carrier in this game, there really isnt a place for "fighter to fighter" combat which is what fighters are for.

Big ships have the slugging matches, going guns vs armor and shields.

Now the biggest difference in SW is they can set shields to "double forward" "even" and the like, making one facing even stronger to absorb hits. Fighters are meant to keep capital sized ships "honest" as in forcing them into evening out their shields.

ST doesnt work like that, we have the shield bubble, now in the game its cut into indvidual sectors, Shields should be changed altogether so we have the traditional "bubble" dropping from 100% down. Cause really? perfect shields on 3 sides wiped out one one with an ineffective, slow and overall useless system to "reroute shield power".
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 200
# 73
09-11-2013, 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnshadow27 View Post
ST doesnt work like that, we have the shield bubble, now in the game its cut into indvidual sectors, Shields should be changed altogether so we have the traditional "bubble" dropping from 100% down. Cause really? perfect shields on 3 sides wiped out one one with an ineffective, slow and overall useless system to "reroute shield power".
They way I see it STO works like ST as far as shields go. How many times did we hear "aft shields are down"? I assume by that that the rest of the shield grid is still online otherwise we could hear "shields are down" and that happened a lot too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skullleaderrfbs View Post
When I see a Jem'Hadar Dreadnaught (which I have, but alas no OP bug ships, unfortunately), I ask with all the advanced firepower that a new Odyssey has, with all the engines powering the weapons why it cannot one shot the fighters. You cannot tell me these tiny fighters have the engines to power enough shields to protect them and still have enough power to damage and penetrate an Odyssey.
The biggest problem here is not the shields and the power they generate (a small warp core is suppose to power a small/medium city) but more on the attacking side. With all the computer power available in any starship, how can they still miss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skullleaderrfbs View Post
IF carriers were to be in the game, and unfortunately, they are, then the Federation should have whatever anyone else has. It?s pretty simple, whatever another company or country makes, others will copy. That does not mean the Klingon version cannot be superior, obviously the US has superior aircraft carriers now to anyone else, but the concept could be the same. Nothing wrong with a Federation skinned carrier with 2 pet slots. But hull, energy, whatever, could be weaker than the KDF to make the KDF superior.

Upgrade the bad guys. The Borg is supposed to be super adaptive. So, they should have more than 1 weapon firing. They shoot 1 weapon at the highest threat now, let the borg be updated so there shooting at all the fighters at once if the carrier is the main aggregate. They should have specific AI routine against carriers.
+1


The way I see it, the "carriers" we have now in STO are not true carriers. Most hangar bays you can get is 2. The most pets you can get is 3 per hangar. Have you ever seen a carrier with just 6 crafts?

My suggestion (as seen on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier#By_size):

Supercarrier (4 bays) => Vo'Quv Carrier, Tholian Recluse Carrier, Jem?Hadar Dreadnought Carrier
Fleet carriers (3 bays) => Corsair, Kar'Fi Battle Carrier, Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser, Caitian Atrox Carrier
Light aircraft carrier (2 bays) => ?? Any new fed carrier ??
Escort carrier (1 bay) => Heavy Escort Carrier, Vesta, Scimitar

Fleet carrier has nothing to do with the fleet ships as we know them now so the name might need a bit of a tweak. Perhaps battle carrier?
These Supercarriers shouldn't be available to the feds unless its a lockbox ship.
Now the > 2 bays may sound/look excessive BUT the pets need to be adapted on the following points:
  1. Hits from almost anything other then a turret should be able to destroy a fighter/pet as skullleaderrfbs pointed out.
  2. More pets per hangar bay. Ex: 3 for the runabout slot. I'm taking the runabout as an example here because its the largest pet around. Other pets adjust accordinly to point 3.
  3. Realistic number of pets per slot. Reman scorpions are about a third of the size runabouts/delta flyers are (see http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/fleet-charts.htm).
    Assuming all hangar bays are equally sized it would/should be a 3:1 ratio.
  4. Tractor spam should be looked at/prevented. I'm not willing to believe a single runabout can hold a starship. A group of 4-6 runabouts might be able to do so.
    Taking into account the changes in point 3, a group of 4 x 9 = 36 reman fighters might be able to break a starship. Or 12 runabouts might do the job too.
    Leaving out point 3 and the way it is now: 4 x 3 = 12 reman fighters should be able to crack your shields to maybe 25%.
  5. Overall skills from pets should be lower. Now it sometimes feels like you are fighting 5 starships instead of 1 + pets.
  6. Launch times should be cut down to compensate for the weaker pets and it would make sense to have 4 hangar bays and not be able to launch a full fleet (first squadron is shot down while the 3rd is still loading).

Other changes could include:
  1. Gravity well and other crowd control skills should have more impact on pets, this can compensate for the number of pets and makes science a needed tool in the Pv(P|E) toolbox.
  2. A new version of BFAW specific for dealing with pets. I'm thinking more hits, less damage and does not fire on starships.
  3. A minor tweaks to CSV so that accuracy vs pets is increased.

To the OP, your suggestion would make it a light aircraft carrier filling the blank. Although I'm not sure I like the tac heavy layout.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 74
09-12-2013, 09:30 PM
You are thinking along the wrong terms for fighters.

At least in ST.

Carriers, as far as space is concerned (dont start with navy crap it doesnt even come close to pertaining) started coming out on one side, those fighters where meant to Harass
Larger ships so the Larger ship could pound it into oblivion. So the otherside needs fighters, to counter their enemies fighters.

Fighters are also smaller so harder to hit, But in some case (in other universes) fighters can take down larger opponents at less of a cost. 12 Fighters and pilots is less expensive and can be built and replaced quicker, than Capitol Class Starships.

Now with Star Trek, Everything is bigger than it really needs to be, on the Federation side at least. Most shuttles having room for around 8, Runabouts having more. I mean the Delta Flyer was so big she had a Frakkin Jeffries Tube. So you look at Stalkers and Scorpions, Small room for a pilot, not much more. It makes more sense to send out 12 Scorpion sized ships than it does 8 Runabouts fully crewed. 12 dead vs 32 dead. Shuttles and Runabouts are great and can defend themselves, but like all federation ships fighting is not their role. its transportation. A Shuttle is essentially a station wagon, with a runabout being a motorhome.

They would have been better off putting real weapons and shields on Federation Trainers and using them.....
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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