Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > PvP Gameplay
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 127
# 11
09-11-2013, 11:34 AM
Key problem with the game is that every time they decide something is too powerful, instead of balancing it, they just break it.

Tricobalt mines too good? Nerfed to uselessness.
Mine spam rampant? 12 second shared cooldown = nerfed to uselessness.
Double stacking BO too good? Made impossible.

Every time they stop something from working at all because they can't be bothered to balance it properly they push us all closer and closer to all cannon/turret escorts because it is the only thing that still really works.

And even that has only avoided the crushing nerf-hammer because Stahl is scared of the outcry they would receive if they actually implemented a change to bring cannons into line.

This is partially why the game is in such a sorry state. This and unprofessional crap like revamping the skill tree and leaving a whole class that gets none of their captain abilities boosted by anything. Or ignorance about balance like thinking singularity cores are worth -40 power.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,706
# 12
09-11-2013, 11:44 AM
Nice post OP. What this boils down to is this.
We the people: Told you so!
Devs:.....please hold the line.....

Im 100% with mai on this one.

It's not only a time and differences of perspective problem. It's a procedural one. Either STahl commands his minions to fix PvP as part of their job, or whatever Hawk gets done in his free time for the good of the game, will be dwarfed by systems latest stroke of genius.

You know those guys giving you the BO doff, expecting it to be used by beam bank cruising engies. So should Stahl decide to fix pvp, open conversation with the community would be great, but based on past experience very unlikely.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 09-11-2013 at 11:52 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 13
09-11-2013, 12:14 PM
The problem isn't quite so simple. This board/community rarely reaches anything even resembling a consensus.

Let us take the upcoming nerf to BO double/triple tapping. Everyone is throwing a hissy fit that it fails to fix the real issue and that it shouldn't be done.

Yet a few months ago when they were about to eliminate the always on EPtS that is one of the most OP bridge officer abilities in the game everyone began to throw a hissy fit.

So what is it, do you want their to be gaps in a players defenses that can be exploited to kills them, or do you not?


But I digress. The true issue is the game lacks a cohesive vision, philosophy, or design. Is it trinity? Is it DPS focused everyone is equal but different? Should captain type determine role in a group or ship type? Or both? Heh.

How does cryptic want the game to be, what is their vision for PvE, PvP, ship setups, etc etc, until that question is answered everything else is just noise.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 14
09-11-2013, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The problem isn't quite so simple. This board/community rarely reaches anything even resembling a consensus.

Let us take the upcoming nerf to BO double/triple tapping. Everyone is throwing a hissy fit that it fails to fix the real issue and that it shouldn't be done.

Yet a few months ago when they were about to eliminate the always on EPtS that is one of the most OP bridge officer abilities in the game everyone began to throw a hissy fit.

So what is it, do you want their to be gaps in a players defenses that can be exploited to kills them, or do you not?


The EPTS gaps were bad, because hard gaps followed by hard coverage continues the trend of spike damage being king and pressure/attrition damage being marginalized.

That has always been the thrust of the conversation of the handful that really have the best grasp of mechanics - many of suggested reducing the resistance that EPTS provides as a better solution than simply having on/off periods with huge swings in resistance levels.


Nowhere is this demonstrated better than TT. TT on vs. TT off.


If we really want to normalize the extremes then the ON/OFF yo-yo mechanics need to stop and resistances, healing and passive mitigation needs to come down.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 15
09-11-2013, 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
The EPTS gaps were bad, because hard gaps followed by hard coverage continues the trend of spike damage being king and pressure/attrition damage being marginalized.

That has always been the thrust of the conversation of the handful that really have the best grasp of mechanics - many of suggested reducing the resistance that EPTS provides as a better solution than simply having on/off periods with huge swings in resistance levels.


Nowhere is this demonstrated better than TT. TT on vs. TT off.


If we really want to normalize the extremes then the ON/OFF yo-yo mechanics need to stop and resistances, healing and passive mitigation needs to come down.
If you want that the first place to look is shield regeneration rates being tied to shield power and how stupid they scale.

The second place to look is the complete lack of target shield resistance debuffs aside from a few corner cases, one of which was recently nerfed.

The third and true place to look is the extreme disparity between damage output, damage healed, compared to base health.

But then again if they wanted to get rid of yo-yo mechanics I would think it would have been done by now. Do the Devs consider them a true problem?
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 410
# 16
09-11-2013, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poeddude View Post
More pvper supremacist rhetoric.

There are some elite pve-ers who test things as extensive as the best pvp-ers but they do it in the dominant environment of the game.

Just because we don't pvp doesn't mean we aren't as obsessed about every little bit of performance we can get out of our ships.

Though I agree the devs need to ask for help these days. They aren't doing a great job of fixing the games problems by themselves.
Ok, PvP players do have a certain Ego. But PvE players rarely ever cycle Tactical Team, or carry an excess amount of resists. Nor is heavy amounts of Team Work Required to complete any given objective. Let us be honest, after you play Hive Onslaught Elite a few times, you figure out just how to Rofl Stomp the Borg without ever putting yourself in Danger. Doing all this while achieving Optionals, is more about playing the same way every time, then adapting to a dynamic enviorment. I am sorry, but PvE, even Elite PvE is still easy mode. We do more Damage in 2 seconds then the Tactical Cubes will do in 1 minute. We are deadlier then the Enviorment, since we think, adapt, and even cheat to win. So please do not say that PvE is equal in skill to PvP. As a player that has never PvPed will get Rofl Stomped in PvP. But the inverse is NOT True. Example of Builds used for PvE vs PvP.

PvE Scimitar Build.

DHC x5, mods do not matter
Turrets x3 mods do not matter

Rare Deflector
Rare Engine
Rare Core
Rare Shield

Consoles... does not really matter

I can spend 1 million EC and be just as effective as 90% of players in PvE...

My PvP ship costs me 180 million EC and is effective as 70% of players in PvP... but my DPS is in the upper 3% easily.

PvP Build

Disruptor DHC x5 (acc)x3 mods
Disruptor Turret x3 (acc)x3 mods

Very Rare Deflector
Fleet Advanced Engine
Fleet Elite Core
Fleet Elite Shield

Consoles

Tycho, Shield Adaptive
3 Piece Scimitar set
Disruptor Induction coilds x5

The difference is in design, please do not take it as me saying I am better then you because I PvP. I am saying that I am better at this game, because I have opened my horizons to play all aspects of the game. Which affords me more experience in developing my own playstyle and tactics. Everybody can be good at PvP, but if you do not try to be good at all aspects of the game... Can you really say that you are as good at the game as somebody who does? I think the answer there is no. PvP is a test of one's skill in game against another. Nothing more, nothing less. And before I started PvPing, I thought the Galaxy X was the best ship in game... Just to share with you, I was still completing Elites... in a Failaxy X... I didnt even use Tactical Team...

Play all aspects of the game, to be truly good at the game. As there is not one PvP player that does not PvE. We have to in order to grind.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,754
# 17
09-11-2013, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
But then again if they wanted to get rid of yo-yo mechanics I would think it would have been done by now. Do the Devs consider them a true problem?
That's actually a good question.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 127
# 18
09-11-2013, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegie0 View Post
please do not take it as me saying I am better then you because I PvP. I am saying that I am better at this game, because I have opened my horizons to play all aspects of the game.
Bit of a contradiction there as PvE and PvP are the only 2 aspects of this game.

I always expect posts from pvpers to come down to "I'm better than you because I pvp" and i'm never disappointed.


Could you tell me exactly how pve is different from most pvp? Sure pvp has more abilities but tends to use them back to back the way NPCs do. People may try to out-maneuver you but keeping someone in your firing arc is the same in both pve and pvp. If a borg sphere moved and turned as fast as a player, had 7 weapon systems, 12 BO abilities (including 2x TT, 2x EPTS etc) and a couple of gimmick consoles there would be very little real difference between that and a player because the fundamental game system is so simple. Sure the NPCs don't cross heal much (some Elachi do) but give them the same tanking capabilities as a player and see what would happen.

I'd rather be in the top 5% of pve-ers than the top 20% of pvpers. Much larger pool to excel in. Just because you are in one does not mean you would make it into the other. Either way round. I suck at pvp. Mainly because I refuse to spec into all the crap necessary to excel at it. I also refuse to play a tactical captain despite how much Cryptic seem to want us all to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The true issue is the game lacks a cohesive vision, philosophy, or design. Is it trinity? Is it DPS focused everyone is equal but different? Should captain type determine role in a group or ship type? Or both? Heh.

How does cryptic want the game to be, what is their vision for PvE, PvP, ship setups, etc etc, until that question is answered everything else is just noise.
This. So much this. The key reason for the game being such a mess is the lack of direction at the most basic level of development. Something that has been lacking since they were forced to release the game way before it was ready.

Last edited by poeddude; 09-11-2013 at 01:14 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 19
09-11-2013, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poeddude View Post
Bit of a contradiction there as PvE and PvP are the only 2 aspects of this game.
Not to nitpick but that would be false.

Their is also the merchant aspect (buy/sell/farm/whatever), the DOFF aspect, and so on. In the end I likely spend more time doffing than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
That's actually a good question.
In my eyes it is the only question. You cannot get good feedback if you don't ask the proper questions and honestly I blame the overwhelming quantity of noise in the feedback to be because of that.

How many times has it been asked that the devs make truly challenging PvE content that requires healers and tanks without even considering if required roles is a design goal for any content eh?

Last edited by bareel; 09-11-2013 at 01:27 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,706
# 20
09-12-2013, 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The problem isn't quite so simple. This board/community rarely reaches anything even resembling a consensus.

Let us take the upcoming nerf to BO double/triple tapping. Everyone is throwing a hissy fit that it fails to fix the real issue and that it shouldn't be done.

Yet a few months ago when they were about to eliminate the always on EPtS that is one of the most OP bridge officer abilities in the game everyone began to throw a hissy fit.

So what is it, do you want their to be gaps in a players defenses that can be exploited to kills them, or do you not?


But I digress. The true issue is the game lacks a cohesive vision, philosophy, or design. Is it trinity? Is it DPS focused everyone is equal but different? Should captain type determine role in a group or ship type? Or both? Heh.

How does cryptic want the game to be, what is their vision for PvE, PvP, ship setups, etc etc, until that question is answered everything else is just noise.
I don't think that is the case.

Some of the more vocal forum pvp'res, including myself, throw out potential solutions over which there can be disagreement. The same goes for the priorities which we all approach from a personally biased POV. However, as far as the problems are concerned there is generally agreement, that goes back long before the F2P forum merger.

One example: I certainly remember the pvp forums begging cryptic to introduce shield distribution to at least one NPC. PvE being to easy not teaching new PvP blood this most basic of STO;s features. This was STO at release.

Nothing of that sort has happened, and it is now part of lesson one curriculum of boot camp. I see countless PvE not balancing their shields every day.

The problem: Cryptic thinks PvE is fine, where as the large consensus for the last three years on the pvp forums has been it is not. We then might debate how to best introduce harder mobs, and shield distribution into PvE. But that is obviously useless, if Cryptic refuses to admit that the problem exists.

Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:45 PM.