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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,217
# 11
09-10-2013, 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachikuno View Post
Theres more logic to that than Id care to admit but considering those were Klingon made D-7 cruisers sold to the Romulans during their pre-warp era, allowing them access to warp drives, would any Romulan/Reman really WANT to fly one now? Then again what Romulan/Reman would really WANT to suckle Fed/Kling **** as a sub-faction... so nevrmind...
Considering we are flying around in a TOS bird-of-prey, I fail to see how using a D7 is anymore demeaning. I would actually like to see the D7 as a C-store T1 ship. Make it have the stats of a Miranda, but the standard (non-battle) cloak of a KDF cruiser.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,027
# 12
09-11-2013, 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
This claim that the Romulans of the time were a pre-warp civilization is not canon and is more than just a little dubious. How did they get from Vulcan to ch'Rihan and attack Earth long before the events of "The Enterprise Incident" without warp capability? Not only does it not make sense, it's also illogical. There's quite a bit of commentary about this on the net (and, iirc, somewhere in the STO fora as well).
Depends on the definition of "warp".
Unless I'm mistaken the Phoenix from "First Contact" was most likely fission powered (given Lilly had to spend 6 months to get enough titanium for the cockpit, how the heck was she supposed to get antimatter?) so the old Romulan/Vulcan ships from the sundering were most likely fusion-powered.
This would also fit in with the dialogue from TOS that its power is "impulse" in the sense of fusion generation.

Only calling antimatter-powered FTL "warp" is probably just a case of "antimatter club snobbism".
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 13
09-11-2013, 02:53 AM
I thought Warp was about making a Warp bubble, and had nothing to do with the ships power source. Our shuttles are all Warp Capable but I doubt they actually have Warp Cores in them despite the slot.

They are probably fusion or some other power plant rather than a Matter/Antimatter reactor.
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Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 407
# 14
09-11-2013, 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
This claim that the Romulans of the time were a pre-warp civilization is not canon and is more than just a little dubious. How did they get from Vulcan to ch'Rihan and attack Earth long before the events of "The Enterprise Incident" without warp capability? Not only does it not make sense, it's also illogical. There's quite a bit of commentary about this on the net (and, iirc, somewhere in the STO fora as well).
I do believe if you check the TOS references they ARE listed as non-warp. It was one of the things that limited the size of the RSE. As for how, well gee we can look at STO and see that "New Romulus" Is actually the "Old Romulus" which they left to make Romulus.. With wars and such its not hard to see technology sliding backwards. There are also the options of sleeper ships, or just time dilation from travelling at .9c on impulse drives. Unfortunately Star Trek, esp the farther back you go, alternates between no canon lore and lollore that contradicts itself with every new product.

edit:
a lot is also dependent on what one calls canon or accepts as canon. Some use X+Y others call Y non-canon

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwford View Post
Considering we are flying around in a TOS bird-of-prey, I fail to see how using a D7 is anymore demeaning. I would actually like to see the D7 as a C-store T1 ship. Make it have the stats of a Miranda, but the standard (non-battle) cloak of a KDF cruiser.
The TOS Bird is Romulan make the D-7 is Klingon but as I kinda ended up invalidating my original point on this in my earlier post I dropped it, hence the 'nevermind' since we have Rom-KDF flying modern KDF ships and C-Store ships why not a refit antique? At least itd give us some more options at lower levels.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,033
# 15
09-11-2013, 04:01 AM
Roddenberry himself altered canon as it made a good story. In Balance of Terror we see the Romulans have a cloak. A year later Star Fleet seemed surprised by the notion. Including the same crew that saw it previously. Then add in Archer on his Enterprise seeing them in cloaked ships you wonder how Star Fleet gets anything recorded.

As for the power types. Check me on this, but when in TOS did they explicitly say antimatter? I thought they only called it warp power?
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,177
# 16
09-11-2013, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachikuno View Post
I do believe if you check the TOS references they ARE listed as non-warp. It was one of the things that limited the size of the RSE. As for how, well gee we can look at STO and see that "New Romulus" Is actually the "Old Romulus" which they left to make Romulus.. With wars and such its not hard to see technology sliding backwards. There are also the options of sleeper ships, or just time dilation from travelling at .9c on impulse drives. Unfortunately Star Trek, esp the farther back you go, alternates between no canon lore and lollore that contradicts itself with every new product.
I have checked the references. There seems to be some misunderstanding over the comment in "Balance of Terror" when Montgomery Scott reported that the Romulan ship had simple impulse, but I have seen some suggest that the T'Liss had warp capacity and could not use it while cloaked or when firing the BIG RED BALL OF DEATH ( fear it!!!), I forget which.

There's also this info from an article at Memory Alpha:

Quote:
The Vulcans were an interstellar civilization by 9th century BC. (ENT: "The Andorian Incident") They invented warp drive some time after 1947 and had reached the level of warp 7 by 2151. (ENT: "Fallen Hero"; DS9: "Little Green Men") Klingons had interstellar travel capability around the time of Kahless in the 9th century. They also invented warp drive some time after 1947 and had achieved the capability of warp 6 by 2151. (TNG: "Rightful Heir"; DS9: "Little Green Men"; VOY: "Day of Honor"; ENT: "Judgment") Romulans were once considered a group of thugs and warp drive was regarded as the key technology that allowed the founding of their Star Empire. (Star Trek: Insurrection) ...
More relevantly, from another article on Memory Alpha:

Quote:
InconsistenciesEdit

The question of whether the Bird-of-Prey had warp capability is one without an easy answer. The Star Trek Encyclopedia claims that the vessel only had impulse engines. Scotty's precise line from "Balance of Terror", however, actually says "their power is simple impulse," possibly referring to their power generators, not necessarily their propulsion system. Kirk did say "We can outrun them", which seems to imply that the "impulse" Scotty was referring to was in fact the propulsion system. It seems reasonable to assume that Scotty meant that they did not use the same type of power system (matter/antimatter reaction) used by the Federation, and that the Romulan ship was capable of propelling itself faster than light with the (rather large) engines it mounted, inducing a warp effect by a simpler, brute-force method.

Whatever was said, the Romulans must have some form of faster-than-light drive or they could not have engaged the Earth in an interstellar war in the 22nd century. Perhaps the fuller meaning of Scotty's line is that the Romulans did not have FTL drive of the same type or capabilities as the current type of warp drive used by the Enterprise, or that the early cloak required so much power that it couldn't be used at the same time as warp engines.

Visual evidence (such as the presence of warp nacelle-like objects on the model) also suggest that the ship had faster-than-light capability, as does the fact that the Enterprise was traveling at warp speeds for much of the engagement with the Romulans.

In season four of Star Trek: Enterprise, the three-part Romulan story arc features a refitted warbird that was warp-capable. That would make it seem highly unlikely that the Bird-of-Prey would not have warp drive when it was built more than a hundred years later.

The bottom line is that no matter what Scotty's "their power is simple impulse" line was meant to mean, the fact of the matter is that the ship had to be traveling faster than light in order to travel the distance they traveled. If Scotty's line was indeed referring to the ship's speed, then really all that we need to do is realize that this was either just an error or the speed the Romulan Bird-of-Prey chose to maintain or could only maintain. The latter of the two seems most likely since it was clearly established in "Balance of Terror" that the Bird-of-Prey's fuel was "low" and "all but gone" with the fuel reserve completely "gone."

The frequent mentions of fuel status also tie in nicely with dialog from "The Doomsday Machine" (among other episodes) that suggests that impulse power (ie, a fusion reaction) can propel a starship at faster than light speeds, but at a severe loss of "fuel efficiency", and possibly a lower top speed.

One non-canon source that attempted to explain this was the novel Final Frontier by Diane Carey, which depicts smaller Romulan vessels being deployed by a warp-capable mothership that carried them into location. However, none of this information was ever referenced in canon.

Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) ~(‾.▿.‾)~ Tal'Diann (Romulan Military Intelligence)
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Last edited by protogoth; 09-11-2013 at 12:50 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 17
09-11-2013, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Depends on the definition of "warp".
Unless I'm mistaken the Phoenix from "First Contact" was most likely fission powered (given Lilly had to spend 6 months to get enough titanium for the cockpit, how the heck was she supposed to get antimatter?) so the old Romulan/Vulcan ships from the sundering were most likely fusion-powered.
This would also fit in with the dialogue from TOS that its power is "impulse" in the sense of fusion generation.

Only calling antimatter-powered FTL "warp" is probably just a case of "antimatter club snobbism".
Warp is the generic term for FTL travel using a localized pocket of subspace to change the "rules of the road" as it were that prevent realisitc hyperliminal travel in normal space time. The power used to create the warp field has no bearing on the use of the term. For example, "modern" Romulan ships using singularity cores are described as traveling at warp.

As for the Phoenix being fission vs. m/am powered, that one I don't think has a definitive answer. Anecdotal and behind the scenes evidence seems to point to it being m/am powered (the explicit description of "plasma injectors", or discussions early on in the design phase of how components from the missile the ship rode in might be used to kickstart the Phoenix' warp drive), but there's nothing airtight that I'm aware of.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 894
# 18
09-12-2013, 05:12 AM
Can someone please do the math and advise me if the Gal-X, in a Romulan's hands, with a full slate of operative/subterfuge/whatever the heck gives the decloak bonus BOffs + subspace jump console + Phaser lance = One Hit Kill every 3 min. w/decloak?

If so, then can I please have access to T5 ships on Rom-Feds???
50: S'Leth/Eurthyr/S. Dareau/Ardrian/Krudge/Annlova Not: Jadja
Still at it. CBS "restrictions" fell by wayside with freebie Breen. Time to re-examine ENT and ToS at tier 5, repurpose the Connie into Sci and rebuild an Akira escort into the "NX". 6 "eras", spread evenly over all the classes...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 185
# 19
09-12-2013, 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post
And what's the point of making a Romulan to fly either Fed or Klingon ships? Don't you have a Fed or Klingon to do that with?
I agree with you, but as the OP stated, if it says you can fly any chosen faction ship, then any chosen faction ship it should be.

Note: and even if you don't want to fly a Fed or KDF ship, you might still want to use a console (that you have paid for) off a particular ship.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,027
# 20
09-12-2013, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Warp is the generic term for FTL travel using a localized pocket of subspace to change the "rules of the road" as it were that prevent realisitc hyperliminal travel in normal space time. The power used to create the warp field has no bearing on the use of the term. For example, "modern" Romulan ships using singularity cores are described as traveling at warp.
Actually, it does seem influence the terminology to a large degree.
The matter-antimatter collider used on Federation starships is called a "warpcore".
If it is put on a station or a planet, it is probably not going to be called warpcore is it?

It's probably one of those weird things like the term "car battery", which isn't a battery but an accumulator but nobody mentions that in this context either.

Another example is "Elaan of Troiyus", where the Enterprise's warp propulsion is sabotaged.
Later when new crystals are installed, Kirk orders Scotty to transfer power to the shields by saying "Warp-in Scotty, full power to shields!"
Only later does he order helm to increase speed beyond impulse.
So in that sense "warp" was not a form of propulsion to him, but a source of power.

You can also see this in "The Doomsday Machine" where Kirk asks "Am I correct in assuming that a fusion explosion of ninety seven megatons will result if a starship impulse engine is overloaded?"
Realistically speaking, the engine is not overloaded but the fusion reactor(s) powering the engine, but in the terminology used here we're lucky to get the information that impulse engines are fusion-powered at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
As for the Phoenix being fission vs. m/am powered, that one I don't think has a definitive answer. Anecdotal and behind the scenes evidence seems to point to it being m/am powered (the explicit description of "plasma injectors", or discussions early on in the design phase of how components from the missile the ship rode in might be used to kickstart the Phoenix' warp drive), but there's nothing airtight that I'm aware of.
Since we can already produce plasma today even though we don't have proper fusion or antimatter generators, I don't think the fact that there are plasma injectors mentioned mean antimatter is involved.
The injectors are only there to put the plasma that is produced into the warpcoils that then phase it into subspace and thus produce the so-called warpfield.
That can be done with plasma from any source, the main difference between plasma from "low-tech" like fission or fusion would be that the whole process would be far less fuel efficient and it's probably a lot more difficult to get plasma that is "hot" enough for really high speeds.

There's also an interesting point to consider: in "Balance of Terror" when the Romulan ship fires on the Enterprise, Kirk orders full reverse at warp speed.
Yet the flaming red ball of doom is faster than the Enterprise at warp.
Without any kind of FTL tech it would have impossible for the the Romulans to have fired their weapon so it can travel at warp speed.
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