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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,046
# 431
09-12-2013, 01:23 PM
They can't nerf stacking HY & TS! If I couldn't have stacked the TS and HY to go with the Plasma Destabilizer...I could have never gotten the epic suicide that I did for my new sig.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 432
09-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
They can't nerf stacking HY & TS! If I couldn't have stacked the TS and HY to go with the Plasma Destabilizer...I could have never gotten the epic suicide that I did for my new sig.
Meh, I had a destablised torp deal 76 k to me lol
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,046
# 433
09-12-2013, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by g0h4n4 View Post
Meh, I had a destablised torp deal 76 k to me lol
Heh, mixed consoles from dorking around with things and just goofing around in general.

I posted this in a thread discussing DRR debuff stacking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Here's an example of what I meant about DRR going negative.

[Combat (Self)] Your Destabilized Plasma Torpedo deals 113031 (51321) Kinetic Damage to Tactical Cube.

That's ~220% damage...because of stacked debuffs.

The (X) number's within that typical range for the listed damage of 54.7k for the Beach Ball.
I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...

Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 434
09-12-2013, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Heh, mixed consoles from dorking around with things and just goofing around in general.

I posted this in a thread discussing DRR debuff stacking...



I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...

Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Ouch that is a high number, having said that I did 176k on ISS Stedl once in Mirror invasion with a single BO... Couldn't believe how squishy it was considering I am a n00b
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)

Last edited by g0h4n4; 09-12-2013 at 01:57 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 435
09-12-2013, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
More to the point, I am a casual gamer, not a hard core pro. PvP in fact occupies a small portion of my time, I do many other things - like train people, help newbies, review their builds, do testing, doff-ing - a lot other things and yes, PvE too. When I PvP, I made a point of not taking part in premade teams unless my fleet is having a casual among ourselves. Being a lone wolf by nature, I enjoy my freedom and my builds reflect the self-reliance of that. Some members of your fleet, which I met in Arena and C&H are pretty damn awful on their own. It's as though they don't know how to fight outside of a premade team. Perhaps you need more 1 on 1 training as opposed to needing be babysit all the time?
Fascinating post, but as someone once told me, everyone has a role, sometimes sacrificing Heals for other stuff may actually help the team.

Not everyone can afford countless respec tokens and re roll toons just for the lolz to play in Kerrat or Pugs. In fact what you see in the queues may not be how they play in pre mades. Sometimes people just play in pugs to let their hair down and have some pew pew and less QQ

E.g Extending someone constantly means they don't need to worry much about shields and have increased resistance.

I seen a 5 team Tac cruisers do this once, a circle of extends, brutally effective against the unprepared and even may give premades a run for their money
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,443
# 436
09-12-2013, 08:35 PM
I just had a thought...

Will this mean I cant buff my javelin with beam overload?

If so then NOOOOOO!!!! .

If not then disregard the NOOOOOO!!!! .
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,050
# 437
09-12-2013, 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacefortress View Post
All it takes is 1 second to kill a player, leaving bop players a free 4 seconds to smoke their victory cigar

With the amount of bleedthrough doffs (BO stacking) and criticals ...it is now possible to kill a player with 75% shield resistence no matter if you have TSS + TT + RSP or eptS all working together, since a specially equipped bop or romulan spiker can shoot through that tough shield exterior without blanching with ease.... granted it requires timing and precision for a bop spiker but then again it requires defending players an equal amount of ...say 10 shield buffs and heal buffs to defend a op spike dmg attack in a single second....

oh wait ...that's right it doesn't work anymore since bleedthrough is so bad..that those spikers will penetrate your heavily defended shields regardless..... take it from me, having over 10 defensive buffs readily when minimax used his spike on me....well it was a surprise when his attack ignored my shields and popped my 60k hull boat inside a second despite the fact i had rsp III + TSS II + TT II + and Rotate shield frequency with high auxiliary power active...much to my disgust
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacefortress View Post

The point I'm trying to say, is that double taps are not the only problems with bop spikers....the main problem is that there is too MUCH shield penetrating weapons, especially combined with the combo of doff penetration abilities that will melt a 60k hull without even damaging the shields of that defending ship
I understand what actually transpired now. He didn't hit you with Elachi weapons, maybe yes, maybe not, that's irrelevant. Nor did his shots actually ignore your shields per say. I think you should have at least saved the combat log. If I guess correctly, since I wasn't there, Mini was in his Emoe / Romulan T'Varo when this happened. His Tactical stations would look roughly like this :

Commander Tact : HY I, HY II, BO III, APO III
Ensign Tact : BO I

In addition, he will have DEM I + Marion and likely 3 X purple BO Doffs

At the time of the ambush, he would have stacked the following : BO I, BO III, HY I, HY II

His Fore Weapons set up would be two DBB, likely Acc X 3 Mk XII purple and two Quantum Torpedo Mk XII purple

Prior to decloaking, he would have activated APO III, APA III, possibly Tactical Fleet and even pop a Weapons Battery so that a purple Maintenance Engineer can add 10% all damages including Torpedos, and active EPtW for an additional 10% damage on Energy weapons

Assuming no Crits, and that all his 4 Tactical Consoles are used for his Energy weapons, this is what his damage would look like roughly :

BO I : 25K
BO III : 34K
HY I : 22K
HY II : 28K

The first shot that hit you is in fact a BO I. With RSP and all the heal buff on, the only damage that it did was really just the bleedthrough : 25K X 10% = 2.5K assuming hull damage resistance is neutral for now. So far, the damage is quite manageable.

But when that first BO hit you, the 3 stacking purple BO doffs proc (at 66% of the time) such that all subsequent attacks against you caused an additional 35% bleedthrough. 35% + 10% = 45%

Adding the damage of BO III + HY I + HY II = 34 K + 22 K + 28 K = 84 K

84K X 45% = 37.8 K

37.8K + 2.5k > 40K

Mini likely have additional rear weapons firing forward that are not accounted for here. At 40K, it should be insufficient to kill your Cruiser however, that may not be the case if any of the BO or HY Torp went critical. Mini likely have something like 150% critical severity so even if just the BO III goes critical, it will increase the overall damage by 23K to 63K, enough to destroy your 62K hull cruiser within a blink of an eye and yes through RSP as though it's not there.

The good news is despite these BO Doffs being abused (what a surprise, eh?) and deviated completely from their intended purpose - which is to aid cruisers, the recent change to BO will also nip it. Know that the 5 sec delay will actually prevent BO III from hitting you during the 4 sec proc window and the HY Torps can no longer stack within the same timeframe.

Re do the calculation above, the only damage that will be scored during the 4 sec period is a single HY I or II. Assuming it's HY II, then 45% of 28 K = 12.6K of hull damage. Adding the bleedthrough from the first BO, the total hull damage will probably be somewhere between 15-17K. Even assuming every single shot crit in a worse case scenario, it will still only mean 37 ~45K of your hull but it's highly unlikely every single shot will crit. More realistically, you will lose between 15~30K in hull so at most, half of your hull. Once you survive the initial alpha, Mini will be toast & crunchy too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by g0h4n4 View Post
That just about summarizes the state of the game at present really, pre and post BO nerf. Extreme resists and heals.
I still fail to see any example of extreme resists and heals despite several claims to the effect.

Quote:
I've played against you yesterday, you were indeed hard to pop as it should be really, one Double tapper shouldn't be able to vape a decent build really, unless you have two in coordination.
Yet, until the fix hits holodeck, that remains as easy as cutting a cake with the current double tappers.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 438
09-12-2013, 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
I still fail to see any example of extreme resists and heals despite several claims to the effect.



Yet, until the fix hits holodeck, that remains as easy as cutting a cake with the current double tappers.
Well with your 23 Second RSP +buffs it is very difficult to kill you unless under the right circumstances and that kill window is very small.

As I said if you have a good sci build a single double tapper should not be able to kill you, unless you are enaged with others and using up your buffs, occupied e.t.c
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,535
# 439
09-12-2013, 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmy1081 View Post
I just had a thought...

Will this mean I cant buff my javelin with beam overload?

If so then NOOOOOO!!!! .

If not then disregard the NOOOOOO!!!! .
Recommendation:

When that patch eventually goes live on Tribble, head over there and test it, make 100% sure whether it does or doesn't, then go from there.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 145
# 440
09-13-2013, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by g0h4n4 View Post
Well with your 23 Second RSP +buffs it is very difficult to kill you unless under the right circumstances and that kill window is very small.

As I said if you have a good sci build a single double tapper should not be able to kill you, unless you are enaged with others and using up your buffs, occupied e.t.c

Well I'm free to be a punching bag on tribble for testing purposes to see if the changes to bo are unwarranted

But I'm pretty certain the changes are warranted for more balancing....let me know (anyone) if you guys want to test it out...I'll jump on when I'm not too busy these days


iskandus
"I understand what actually transpired now. He didn't hit you with Elachi weapons, maybe yes, maybe not, that's irrelevant. Nor did his shots actually ignore your shields per say. I think you should have at least saved the combat log. If I guess correctly, since I wasn't there, Mini was in his Emoe / Romulan T'Varo when this happened. His Tactical stations would look roughly like this"

Elachi weapons alone have a very small percentage % of penetration so yes I doubt mini would rely on elachi weapons alone
It makes sense what you said and I agree that the changes should nip this imbalance in the bud and I know mini would be upset that such a change might occur but I know mini can more than kill me without using bleedthrough or double taps as his crutch (I mean that in a good way). I'm harder to kill than some because I am always keeping my guard up, however I make mistakes in this game especially if Im focused on concentrating on anouther player in 1v1 which makes the perfect time for someone like mini to alpha me.
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