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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,605
# 11
09-14-2013, 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
OP is where the counter is weak against it

Cheese is where there is no practical counter against it
OP can be Cheese when one adds Spam.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,472
# 12
09-14-2013, 07:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
more then 2 hangers present in a match just creates to much garbage on the screen for fun to be had, pets are truly the cancer of pvp. my fun tips into the red at times like that, and my frame rate goes into the single digits.
This ^

Is why I've taken the flying my tac sovereign FAW boat lately just so it's extremely easy to clear the area of pets and torps and allow the team to operate unhindered or even lagged.

Last edited by edalgo; 09-14-2013 at 08:27 AM.
Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 463
# 13
09-14-2013, 08:35 AM
I guess OP for me is when the natural counter(s) to a 1:1 attack is inherently (and significantly) weaker at equivalent buff/power/skill spec levels than the attack(s) or vice versa. That isn't to say, however, that things like RSP or FBP should absorb/reflect 100% damage as this would be stupid OP, as one example.

Cheese, for me anyways, is any ability/device or combination thereof that is 1) obviously broken (not WAI - a clever combo is a clever combo), 2) is immune to the logical/has no natural 1:1 counter(s), 3) Does not 'cost' - like how cloaking disables your weapons, for example - anything to use and has the same effect on every use regardless of skill points/buffs/debuffs/power levels/etc, or 4) all of these.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 14
09-14-2013, 08:35 AM
I've always thought of cheese as corny or silly or absurd given the game's context. So, I've generally had a different definition then most players.

For OP, I've always thought of it as there being a basic meta structure to a game and a scope for the roles w/in that structure. When something is able to break out of that scope for a role(s) it's meant to have, I've think of it needing to be looked at as OP.

Something is very OP when it breaks out of the intended Scope to the point of changing the meta structure itself. These should be high priorities.

This is different than a 3rd thing which is time/$ gated power creep which creates large barriers of entry and is another, but not mutually exclusive issue. This often goes hand in hand w/the rate of power creep.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,466
# 15
09-14-2013, 08:41 AM
Another factor that I think affects what people think of as cheese is the counter.

If the counter is
a) uncommon in most builds (e.g. Eng Team) OR
b) screws with the ability of the affected person to activate a counter (anything that affects BoFF abilities, e.g. TIF, SS doff), OR
c) cannot be directly cleared using an ability that applies to self (TIF),

it's going to be considered cheesy.
Take it easy!

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"Squeak?"
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,003
# 16
09-14-2013, 08:48 AM
OP, for me, is also skills/abilities/consoles/combinations that are conceptually fine, but need their numbers tweaked.

Cheese is things that would make me feel dirty if I used it, because it'd be hard to impossible to counter or focusses more on griefing than on getting fair kills.

Gorgonzola is combinations of these two - eg stacking things on top of cheese to make that even worse. Tac-buffed DPB3 Web Mines come to mind.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 17
09-14-2013, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
Another factor that I think affects what people think of as cheese is the counter.

If the counter is
a) uncommon in most builds (e.g. Eng Team) OR
b) screws with the ability of the affected person to activate a counter (anything that affects BoFF abilities, e.g. TIF, SS doff), OR
c) cannot be directly cleared using an ability that applies to self (TIF),

it's going to be considered cheesy.
I thought you like cheese, especially elemental
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,029
# 18
09-14-2013, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
OP is where the counter is weak against it

Cheese is where there is no practical counter against it
I should have said "balancing mechanism" instead of "counter" since some things are balanced locally (eg, BOFF seats have opportunity costs, even if the abilities dont have a "counter").
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,769
# 19
09-14-2013, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
more then 2 hangers present in a match just creates to much garbage on the screen for fun to be had, pets are truly the cancer of pvp. my fun tips into the red at times like that, and my frame rate goes into the single digits.
The spam nature of pets is why I advocated a COV/Mastermind approach to pet use for carrier class vessels based on thier Tier. The weakest but several pets at T3, fewer but slightly stronger pets at T4 and then 1-2 strong pets at T5.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,769
# 20
09-14-2013, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
OP is where the counter is weak against it

Cheese is where there is no practical counter against it
And P2W ????
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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