Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 231
09-13-2013, 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
You can stack them or stagger them to produce a stronger or consecutively longer movement debuff if needed.

NWS in particular comes to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by praxi5 View Post
Did we get an answer as to why it's not OK for a max'd out (skill and power levels) Commander level Sci skill to not be able take out a group of 5 Frigates, but FAW/EWP/CSV can do that and it's totally cool, all the while being significantly "cheaper" to use?

Perhaps, when viewed in that light, GW could use a further buff instead of it's "nerf"?
How about we let them sort out what they think it should be then we throw a GW party on tribble when they let us play and test it out.

I trust we'll be testing both 1v1 PvP + PvE and fustercluck PvP and PvE?
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,873
# 232
09-13-2013, 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by praxi5 View Post
Did we get an answer as to why it's not OK for a max'd out (skill and power levels) Commander level Sci skill to not be able take out a group of 5 Frigates, but FAW/EWP/CSV can do that and it's totally cool, all the while being significantly "cheaper" to use?
I agree with you. As a tac captain, with GW1/CSV and torpedo spreads, I took out the whole S side of NWS by myself in about 15 seconds without spending skill points on GW related sci skills. GW was used just to clump the ships together for easy kills.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 899
# 233
09-14-2013, 12:53 AM
We can sit here and dissect the changes of GW as being less than ideal for a whole day and we probably will still manage to nitpick a lot. The truth is, these fixes are already 100 times better than what we had before. How long has Tyken's Rift being completely broken yet with no less than thousands of bug reports filed on it, it was completely ignored? I am grateful we now have a more pro-active developer on this than before. Quite honestly, he fixed quite a bit lately. No one is perfect and I am sure we are not going to see eye to eye on every single detail but I am just grateful that the bugs are fixed.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,022
# 234
09-14-2013, 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by praxi5 View Post
Did we get an answer as to why it's not OK for a max'd out (skill and power levels) Commander level Sci skill to not be able take out a group of 5 Frigates, but FAW/EWP/CSV can do that and it's totally cool, all the while being significantly "cheaper" to use?

Perhaps, when viewed in that light, GW could use a further buff instead of it's "nerf"?
Not saying it can't be done, but I've never seen EWP take things out without supplementary fire.

On that note, the reason why CSV and FAW do more damage then GW is because a ship that hits you with grav well... they can also hit you with CSV and FAW at the same time... They aren't mutually exclusive. If you made GW the same damage as CSV *AND* gave it holding/clumping ablities... would it not then be overpowered compared to CSV?

To many people try to look at sci skills in a vacuum...

Edit: Admittedly, I totally suck at aiming my EWP =P

And... Is it just CSV that is killing them all in one shot, or is it APA+APO+EPTW+SS+ + + +?
Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard

Last edited by kimmym; 09-14-2013 at 04:15 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,662
# 235
09-14-2013, 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
Not saying it can't be done, but I've never seen EWP take things out without supplementary fire.

On that note, the reason why CSV and FAW do more damage then GW is because a ship that hits you with grav well... they can also hit you with CSV and FAW at the same time... They aren't mutually exclusive. If you made GW the same damage as CSV *AND* gave it holding/clumping ablities... would it not then be overpowered compared to CSV?

To many people try to look at sci skills in a vacuum...

Edit: Admittedly, I totally suck at aiming my EWP =P

And... Is it just CSV that is killing them all in one shot, or is it APA+APO+EPTW+SS+ + + +?
Bullox. You can cvs or crf 1 with science vessel but what makes it deadly is the tac captain and other buffs like attack pattern beta and alpha. I can't do that in my science ship with science captain.

This game is all about the DPS race so give science some tools to close the gap. I am not saying that they be anywhere equal but in the same ballpark. If we spec heavily into the particle and graviton fields then let our ship have some teeth.

It is freakin PvE. Being able to do about 1/2 as well as tac in twice the time is not a lot to ask.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 734
# 236
09-14-2013, 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
Not saying it can't be done, but I've never seen EWP take things out without supplementary fire.

On that note, the reason why CSV and FAW do more damage then GW is because a ship that hits you with grav well... they can also hit you with CSV and FAW at the same time... They aren't mutually exclusive. If you made GW the same damage as CSV *AND* gave it holding/clumping ablities... would it not then be overpowered compared to CSV?

To many people try to look at sci skills in a vacuum...

Edit: Admittedly, I totally suck at aiming my EWP =P

And... Is it just CSV that is killing them all in one shot, or is it APA+APO+EPTW+SS+ + + +?
A buffed EWP is absolutely terrifying. There have been guys pumping it up to beyond 1,000 damage/tick.

But the thing is that CSV/FAW/Whatever build on what you're already got - you're already got those Weapons that are doing high damage, now you're just buffing them up even higher with something as simple as a Lt-level skill.

For GW 3, you've got to sacrifice power to run high Aux, spec heavily into PartGen and GravGen, and lose your Cmdr-level ability.

Something that is THAT expensive (power, skilling, possibly consoles, and Commander-level) SHOULD be doing a butt ton of damage. And if it's maxed out, why shouldn't it be able to do what a few DHCs and an Lt level skill (with have the cooldown, at that) can do?
The first we heard of getting new PvP maps "soon" was in August of 2010. We're consistently told something will be coming with the "next" update. Absolutely nothing has come to PvP since launch.

I think it's finally time Cryptic stopped stringing us along, don't you?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,022
# 237
09-14-2013, 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by praxi5 View Post
A buffed EWP is absolutely terrifying. There have been guys pumping it up to beyond 1,000 damage/tick.

But the thing is that CSV/FAW/Whatever build on what you're already got - you're already got those Weapons that are doing high damage, now you're just buffing them up even higher with something as simple as a Lt-level skill.

For GW 3, you've got to sacrifice power to run high Aux, spec heavily into PartGen and GravGen, and lose your Cmdr-level ability.

Something that is THAT expensive (power, skilling, possibly consoles, and Commander-level) SHOULD be doing a butt ton of damage. And if it's maxed out, why shouldn't it be able to do what a few DHCs and an Lt level skill (with have the cooldown, at that) can do?

Not saying the math all works out perfect, but if you have already gone the route of maxing part gen and aux and et all, You now also have a whole host of other skills and abilities that are buffed now as well.

And there is nothing stopping me from maxing out aux and weapons and the relevant sci skills and running 4 tac consoles with dhcs and CRF2 (go, go Vesta!) or beams and FaW3.

Again, until we have some numbers to work with it's all speculation, but that doesn't mean it isn't easy to see where GW can't possibly deal as much raw damage as fully buffed weapons. You get to have both at the same time...

Edit: And a Vesta doesn't even have to choose between weapon power and aux if they really want to, either.

And EWP might do 1000 a tick, but it does 0 a tick once its cleared by HE (but at least it soaked the HE). My GW tooltip currently reads over 1,400 a tick, and (should) clump targets as well (Cleared by any good movement buff, but soaks the movement buff)
Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard

Last edited by kimmym; 09-14-2013 at 07:52 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 734
# 238
09-14-2013, 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmym View Post
Not saying the math all works out perfect, but if you have already gone the route of maxing part gen and aux and et all, You now also have a whole host of other skills and abilities that are buffed now as well.

And there is nothing stopping me from maxing out aux and weapons and the relevant sci skills and running 4 tac consoles with dhcs and CRF2 (go, go Vesta!) or beams and FaW3.

Again, until we have some numbers to work with it's all speculation, but that doesn't mean it isn't easy to see where GW can't possibly deal as much raw damage as fully buffed weapons. You get to have both at the same time...

Edit: And a Vesta doesn't even have to choose between weapon power and aux if they really want to, either.
Disregarding everything else, that argument only holds true for a Vesta... what about the Wells? Nebula? RSV? DSSV? etc etc

Sci ships have an inherent disadvantage compared to the other ship types when it comes to damage. Less weapon slots, lower Weapons power, fewer Tac consoles and BOffs (in general), so on and so forth. Sci depends on it's BOff abilities for damage, moreso than an Escort or Cruiser.

But those two still depend on their BOffs for damage too - and they get a lot of it. Why shouldn't Sci have the ability to do damage with BOff abilities?

We don't have numbers yet, but we know that GW 3 is going to be "nerfed" from where it should be, simply due to the fact that the Devs feel that it shouldn't be able to take out a group of 5 Frigates - but it's totally fine when a single CSV does that.
The first we heard of getting new PvP maps "soon" was in August of 2010. We're consistently told something will be coming with the "next" update. Absolutely nothing has come to PvP since launch.

I think it's finally time Cryptic stopped stringing us along, don't you?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,022
# 239
09-14-2013, 07:58 AM
Some other sci ships are nearly as potent (wells has 3 tac consoles and can have a Ltcom tac, Fleet nova ltcom tac and 3 tac consoles. Fleet Luna isn't bad either) and the rest are in roughly the same boat as many cruisers. Solution: If you want a DPS sci ship, fly a DPS sci ship.

Again, my buffed grav wells list for a ton of damage.... I reserve my judgment for when I have some numbers and some experience with how it feels. They may nerf it to much and I'll be complaining loudly about how it wasn't good enough =P but for now I understand the reasoning, even tho it means it's power that I won't be getting (I am a sci, after all =P)
Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 793
# 240
09-15-2013, 04:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by praxi5 View Post
Disregarding everything else, that argument only holds true for a Vesta... what about the Wells? Nebula? RSV? DSSV? etc etc

Sci ships have an inherent disadvantage compared to the other ship types when it comes to damage. Less weapon slots, lower Weapons power, fewer Tac consoles and BOffs (in general), so on and so forth. Sci depends on it's BOff abilities for damage, moreso than an Escort or Cruiser.

But those two still depend on their BOffs for damage too - and they get a lot of it. Why shouldn't Sci have the ability to do damage with BOff abilities?

We don't have numbers yet, but we know that GW 3 is going to be "nerfed" from where it should be, simply due to the fact that the Devs feel that it shouldn't be able to take out a group of 5 Frigates - but it's totally fine when a single CSV does that.
Since we're talking about inherent disadvantages, along with broken abilities like Gravity Well, and this comment isn't' toward you, Praxi, but the people who THINK they are working on the game:

All(?) science ships have the innate ability to disable any sub-system. Correct?
So if that is SUPPOSEDLY unique to the science-class, why aren't they allowed to have higher tier sub-system disabling up to tier 3???
Why are the stupid tactical ships allowed to have level 3 subsystem disabling?? They don't even need it!! I don't know about you guys but this seems completely idiotic.

High tier sub-system disabling should be a SCIENCE ABILITY not a tactical ability, but SCIENCE!!

What is the point of giving tactical captains that specialized ability, or for that matter making high tier sub-system disabling a tactical ability, when they could take out a target WITHOUT the need to disable any system???

If tactical captains are given such high tier sub-system disabling, why do you people even bother putting innate tier 1 sub-system disabling abilities on science ships?! Just to insult our intelligence?
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