Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,444
# 191
09-11-2013, 04:25 PM
You mention a hangar pet layout...hmm. I have an idea, and I hope the other players don't shoot me for this. But what about a mini ship tier system for carriers for AI and special abilities that you want them to have, and/or allow your shuttle/fighters to use your current shuttles setup as its own ship set/weapon's setup: Lets say you have an aegis set in your shuttle with a beam array and torpedo, all of your pets will then have a beam array and torpedo using that same beam and torpedo you have installed into your craft, and each will have the aegis shield set, but the hp will still be light as they are still small craft and not star ships. Some shuttles/fighters have 3 attacks for this just ad in a phantom slot for pets on your shuttle/fighter to fill for these or you could also add in a 3rd weapons slot to existing playable shuttles...how ever you would want to play it. Fighters aren't hero ships but mixed with a giant carrier this will bring back the epic nature of what a carrier is supposed to be!

Let me know what you think.

How Picard dealt with ARC!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 192
09-11-2013, 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
We are trying to find time to perform thorough balance tests on ALL hangar pets as soon as we can manage. Which probably won't be for at least several months. This review would include both DPS and Survivability. It's probable that changes to something as specific Slaver hitpoints won't happen until we are able to review all pets against one another, and determine where their effectiveness needs to land.
How can the community structure a test to gather meaningful data to assist you in determining whether fighters are meeting your design specs?

DPS Test:
Would individual dps logs of a wing of each blue fighter class attacking a stationary Bortasqu with neutronium armors and KHG Shield be meaningful? If the target is identical each test, it should allow for relative comparison of dps.

Survivability Test:
Would individual logs of a wing of each blue fighter class attacking a Bortasqu firing disruptors with BFAW on cooldown be meaningful? If the target is defending in an identical manner, it should allow for relative comparison of survivability.

You introduced the new Carrier system on July 25. In the ensuing 6 weeks, problems of fighter survivability, an AI which continues to fail to avoid warp core breach, and inconsistent dps have been repeatedly commented upon. I would hope that Cryptic would not wait "months" more to give tuning these issues some priority. Basically, this is checking to see if the new interface "works as intended" that would be viewed as part of a Quality Control process.

Please let us know how to be of assistance.
Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 374
# 193
09-12-2013, 08:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starakus View Post
... If cryptic truly were trying to *nerf contraband it would be as simple as increasing the contraband requirement for the security officer yet again, or remove him entirely. ...
I predict this happens.

If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 293
# 194
09-12-2013, 09:14 AM
I have a combatlog devoted soley to my Advanced Slavers, since I got curious and picked up a pair anyway.

At about 90,000 'swings' which I'm using to determine a rough 'combat uptime' (assuming 1.25 seconds per beam shot), I'm getting a loot rate of about .008, with 59 successful steals. Of those 59, 2 have been contraband.

Raises lots of questions like, if the steal attempt has anything to do with weapons fire so hits matter at all, whether shields/hull damage is a factor etc.

I'm also attempting to see the effects of flow capacitors (STOwiki), which if it effects anything, would be 'steal crew', and I infer looting is tied to attempts at 'steal crew'.

None of which I can compare with elites, as I don't have access to them
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,136
# 195
09-12-2013, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sulfrustriple View Post
How can the community structure a test to gather meaningful data to assist you in determining whether fighters are meeting your design specs?
Thank you for the offer!

Any thorough testing performed by the community is helpful. It still has to be verified internally, but it can provide us clues as to what we should be on the lookout for.

Quote:
DPS Test:
Would individual dps logs of a wing of each blue fighter class attacking a stationary Bortasqu with neutronium armors and KHG Shield be meaningful? If the target is identical each test, it should allow for relative comparison of dps.
This sounds like a good baseline for a test. Keep in mind that we'd need to know exactly what gear the Bortasqu had in every slot, all of their Rep Passives, Skills and Traits, in order to accurately quantify the results. As well the skills, gear and passives of the Carrier.

Also, we're looking at test figures in the quantities of hours of non-stop fighting. We can manage this more easily internally by speeding up a local test shard (so 10 min passes in 1 min, e.g.). If you're willing to spend that amount of time on the test, you're welcome to. Shorter testing periods are prone to spikes of inconsistency.

Quote:
Survivability Test:
Would individual logs of a wing of each blue fighter class attacking a Bortasqu firing disruptors with BFAW on cooldown be meaningful? If the target is defending in an identical manner, it should allow for relative comparison of survivability.
Survivability is far less quantifiable. A ship with a PSW or TBR equipped can almost universally wipe out waves of Hangar Pets regardless of how sturdy they are. I don't think it's worth performing this testing until we see where the relative DPS results end up.

Quote:
You introduced the new Carrier system on July 25. In the ensuing 6 weeks, problems of fighter survivability, an AI which continues to fail to avoid warp core breach, and inconsistent dps have been repeatedly commented upon. I would hope that Cryptic would not wait "months" more to give tuning these issues some priority. Basically, this is checking to see if the new interface "works as intended" that would be viewed as part of a Quality Control process.
You're talking about two extremely different and separate forms of Hangar Pet performance: Stats and AI. Don't conflate the two. While they each contribute to one another, behavior errors in the AI need to be addressed separately from any DPS parsing we may eventually perform. (And prior to, if at all possible.)

As for your commentary on our priorities... Well, you're welcome to your opinions of course, but we do the best we can to keep this game moving forward with the limited number of hours that exist in a day.

Don't rush a miracle man, sonny - you get rotten miracles.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,519
# 196
09-12-2013, 10:15 AM
Biggest issue faced right now is the fighter weight class of pets because in the subject of slavers they usually do not last long enough to even test out their mechanics. Most likely if a test is done increasing their survival in theory that might solve the problem.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 197
09-12-2013, 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This sounds like a good baseline for a test. Keep in mind that we'd need to know exactly what gear the Bortasqu had in every slot, all of their Rep Passives, Skills and Traits, in order to accurately quantify the results. As well the skills, gear and passives of the Carrier.

Also, we're looking at test figures in the quantities of hours of non-stop fighting. We can manage this more easily internally by speeding up a local test shard (so 10 min passes in 1 min, e.g.). If you're willing to spend that amount of time on the test, you're welcome to. Shorter testing periods are prone to spikes of inconsistency.
Ok, I am working on getting this running. Would running this on Tribble be more straightforward since it will remove rep traits from the mix? Tier zero everywhere for both attacker and target. Tribble also allows me to test advanced fighters since it doesn't cost me real dilithium.

Data gathering hours is fairly straight forward. However given the survivability of fighters, would an hour of one fighter type attacking yield relevant data? Dead fighters don't level up. 5 minutes of fighters leveling up and 55 minutes of level 5 fighters that in reality don't occur seems to produce skewed data for anything other than RELATIVE comparison.

It was amusing to break out the old anniversary event Bortas and get it running again. Watching it destroy all the fighters attacking in one BFAW was a lot of fun, but I suppose that's one of the primary concerns about fighters right now.

Thank you for your attention to these issues.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,026
# 198
09-15-2013, 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Thank you for the offer!

Any thorough testing performed by the community is helpful. It still has to be verified internally, but it can provide us clues as to what we should be on the lookout for.



This sounds like a good baseline for a test. Keep in mind that we'd need to know exactly what gear the Bortasqu had in every slot, all of their Rep Passives, Skills and Traits, in order to accurately quantify the results. As well the skills, gear and passives of the Carrier.

Also, we're looking at test figures in the quantities of hours of non-stop fighting. We can manage this more easily internally by speeding up a local test shard (so 10 min passes in 1 min, e.g.). If you're willing to spend that amount of time on the test, you're welcome to. Shorter testing periods are prone to spikes of inconsistency.



Survivability is far less quantifiable. A ship with a PSW or TBR equipped can almost universally wipe out waves of Hangar Pets regardless of how sturdy they are. I don't think it's worth performing this testing until we see where the relative DPS results end up.



You're talking about two extremely different and separate forms of Hangar Pet performance: Stats and AI. Don't conflate the two. While they each contribute to one another, behavior errors in the AI need to be addressed separately from any DPS parsing we may eventually perform. (And prior to, if at all possible.)

As for your commentary on our priorities... Well, you're welcome to your opinions of course, but we do the best we can to keep this game moving forward with the limited number of hours that exist in a day.

Don't rush a miracle man, sonny - you get rotten miracles.
That's a nice quote fom Princess Bride there. Sadly, it also says a lot about your psychology ... Which seems widespread about devs in general not just here.

It seems like the original complaint of this thread is getting put aside. Surely you can confirm or reject the that the changes have dramatically affected the slaver % easily. Since it something you worked on recently I would assume you would want to verify that it works correctly. Kind of like having pride in your work thing.
Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 27
# 199
09-15-2013, 12:19 PM
This "Slaver Fix" is just another one of their methods to nerf contraband into oblivion, don't you see? They are trying to rob us of the best source of dilithium!
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,026
# 200
09-15-2013, 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nx15 View Post
This "Slaver Fix" is just another one of their methods to nerf contraband into oblivion, don't you see? They are trying to rob us of the best source of dilithium!
You are probably right. So sad since there is already a daily limit on refining. Why make it even harder? I don't have this toy but I wish that those who spent dilithium for it get a functional feature.

At least be honest about it if it is a nerf. A little sincerity and humility goes a long way mr. miracle worker.
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