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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,601
# 91
09-15-2013, 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I find that to be a curious statement.

Would it not be akin to saying that airplanes need X, and doubters should ride skateboards to see that?

Wouldn't it actually be a case of playing more MMOs?

After all, it's an MMO - it should play like a MMO...it shouldn't play like a FPS, RTS, boardgame, SPRPG, etc, etc, etc...no?
planetside 2 is an mmo

this game is using a bad cookie cutter, "hi, im paperclip, i see you are trying to make an rpg" set of bull **** mechanics from the 90s.

you want mmorpg mechanics to work in this game then get rid of kerrat, get rid if the exploration zones, get rid of all the pug queues anywhere.

why BECAUSE IT IS TRYING TO APPLY TABLE TOP RPG GAME MECHANICS to a game with;
guns
spaceships
pug queues,
random encounters
etc etc etc
to quote some issues i pointed out ages ago

""+ the amount of freely accessible content you can get without spending a digm. i dont know of another game that compares to this.
- that content seems to be designed around myth & magic rpg mechanics. which just dont work with guns.

+ its sci-fi, i like sci-fi.
- the sci-fi has taken the 'space magic' thing a bit far.

+ it has guns, guns are fun
- the guns seem to be re-skinned magic staffs/enchanted crossbows

+ it has space ship battles & big explosions
- the gfx for the explosions could be better along with the weapon strike effects

+ on higher difficulties levels can be challenging
- on higher difficulties you will often be instantly tpk'd

+ much of the available story content could be made into large multiplayer or even just squad challenges
- the clunky game mechanics, 1990s ai, unrefined fiddly ui, beta-esq animation locks & collision detection quickly become the limiting factor rather than the opposition. all detracting from enjoyment.
especially when you compare the game to the ufo, conflict, mass effect, flashpoint and xcom games all of which have elements that could have been used as inspiration for everything from gunplay & squad control and the gui.
""

this game IS mechanically done wrong,
it is mechanically a middling failure,
the pve goes from easy & stupid to broken and punnishing without difficulty entering the frame, and for pvp i load other games that actually work.

all because of the derpy rpg mechanics being not fit for perpose in any way sharp or form.

your analogy woulod work better if you said "cars need X, doubters should stop using flintstone-mobiles to see this".

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I don't know, I can see where he is coming from, games with different factions have different units in each faction that work differently and need balancing properly against one another (in a RTS setting) and they usually do it quite well so as an example of STO vs a properly balanced game I can see where a different game style would demonstrate this.

If that makes any sense... (it worked in my head)
pretty much.

there is also the issue of how games are split into generas is a haphazard way that doesnt really address the content in an accurate way.
theres an extra credits video on this if i can find it

sto isnt balanced against cost, it isnt balanced against cross class abilities, it isnt balanced against player abilities within the same class, teh ships are an utter mess both integrally to themselves and aganist a class system that was made up on the spot and makes no sense to the ships in question.

etc etc etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?

Last edited by skollulfr; 09-15-2013 at 04:14 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,072
# 92
09-15-2013, 04:37 PM
The foundational mechanics do not scale very well.

If the level cap was 40 and Tier 4 ships were as far as you could go half of the problems would disappear with the original design. If the original mechanics all actually worked properly (crew I'm looking at you) several other problems would vanish. Finally if they would have truely fixed some of the bad mechanics instead of knee-jerking fixes that create more problems (your turn Tac Team) well yeah.
STO's F2P is basically an inferior experience for the masses at no cost being subsidized by a handful of whales seeking whatever it is that motivates them to spend hundreds if not thousands on a game.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,601
# 93
09-15-2013, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The foundational mechanics do not scale very well.

If the level cap was 40 and Tier 4 ships were as far as you could go half of the problems would disappear with the original design. If the original mechanics all actually worked properly (crew I'm looking at you) several other problems would vanish. Finally if they would have truely fixed some of the bad mechanics instead of knee-jerking fixes that create more problems (your turn Tac Team) well yeah.
the rpg mechanics dont scale well because they are at their core intended for tabletop pve teams.
in the computer game setting the game designer took the role of dungeon master when designing the level for the small team of people to go through in their little team of tabletop rpg classes.

what part of sto does that narrow formula actually apply to sto? some of the old stf stuff thats horribly dated against the new content?
those systems are now obsolete, along with the old rpg game system. its been antiquated by technology and is just losing to other systems that are more flexible, like the balancing systems used in balancing classes in shooters and the systems used in balancing units in rts, because these systems CAN actually scale and adapt because they where designed for computer games with larger teams of players and for addressing hundreds of distinct entities in play.

something antiquated rpg mechanics just cant do because they where never designed with such scenarios in mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?

Last edited by skollulfr; 09-15-2013 at 04:57 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 94
09-15-2013, 05:21 PM
edit: Meh, I'm not going to get into arguing which types of games are better - everybody has their preferences - but if you want to play X, then play X - don't try to make Y and Z into X.
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 09-15-2013 at 05:49 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,601
# 95
09-15-2013, 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I apologize...because I stopped reading there.

I should clarify...admittedly I've gotten lazy as have many, but when I use the term MMO - I'm referring to a MMORPG...not some MMOFPS nonsense.

Okay, I actually went back and read the rest...
find a nice dark hole for that genera purist elitism

Quote:
Why?
because they are beyond the scope of what rpg mechanics where designed to address


Quote:
Er...huh?
i copied a previous post from a pluses & minuses thread.

Quote:
That's a distinct issue. To some it's not an issue (it's an issue to me, mind you). The game's intended audience...well...yeah...ahem
not really, yoyo heals are a very significant part of the game mechanics here.

Quote:
Er?
try playing games outside of one genera.

Quote:
Bugs?
not bugs.
bad design, un-telegraphed insta-kill abilities built into the game rather than using actual difficulty. resulting in an experience that is simply punishing.
more of what i mean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toVNkuCELpU


Quote:
That's a mix of subjective experience...
Again, subjective...
nope, its stating the obvious.
the game mechanics implemented here do not address the content.

Quote:
Actually, that's what I said would make the better analogy than what you said...
im talking about antequation of mechanics, not genera elitism.

Quote:
Not to look outside of MMOs, but to look at MMOs...car to car. You said to look ignore MMOs to fix a MMO...which sounds like somebody that hates MMOs.
nope, i hate bad game mechanics.
im fine with mmo's that stick to what mmo's can do, ie, pve in a mith & magic seetting.
that being what the mechanics where designed for

Quote:
Mass Effect is a derpy Action RPG...
Flashpoint is a derpy shooter...
X-Com varies from derpy TBT to RTS...
really, stick that elitism.
mass effect had a well developed squad control & power usage interface that complemented the gameplay rather than obstructing it.
flashpoint the same.
and if you think those games are 'derpy' then outsite of rose tinted elitism, you must think sto and the plethora of other games using the same ancient clunky interface are amoeba. one trip out into exploration sectors with the so-called difficulty slider set to 'hard' (punnishing being a better term) and you instantly run into this games ultimate end boss.
the gui and the systems there in.


Quote:
They're different games...different styles...who gives a rat's ass?

That's as bad as all the crap about trying to introduce more deckbuilding nonsense or the MOBA garbage...
anyone who wants to actually enjoy playing star trek online rather than play "buff jenga & "button babysitting".

about all you are doing is deliberatly missing the point, this has nothing to do with the misconceived doff deckbuilding, a system that could easily have woked as a specialisation system rather than top-trumps.

and why? something to do with the genera-ism you expressed earlier?

and that includes you, who is as quick to discuss what is and is not working in this game as anyone. except aparenty when it come to the mechanics of the game which you seem emotionally attached to for some reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
edit: Meh, I'm not going to get into arguing which types of games are better - everybody has their preferences - but if you want to play X, then play X - don't try to make Y and Z into X.
this was never THAT argument in the first place.
its about using multiple sources as inspiration to see what parts worked, why, and where they where best applied in order to to overcome issues that are present.

you are the one that got bent out of shape over other 'derpy' genera's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?

Last edited by skollulfr; 09-15-2013 at 05:59 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,671
# 96
09-15-2013, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
After all, it's an MMO - it should play like a MMO...it shouldn't play like a FPS, RTS, boardgame, SPRPG, etc, etc, etc...no?
It should play like a living breathing universe that you are a part of

You ever watch youtube vids where the screen is so cluttered you cant even see the enemy ships? The player is flying the power tray, not the ship?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 97
09-15-2013, 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
It should play like a living breathing universe that you are a part of

You ever watch youtube vids where the screen is so cluttered you cant even see the enemy ships? The player is flying the power tray, not the ship?
You ever watch an episode of Star Trek (any series) or any of the movies? Just saying.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bridge
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,601
# 98
09-15-2013, 07:49 PM
if in doubt, be obtuse.
YHL, HAND.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,534
# 99
09-15-2013, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
but thats the best part, everyone loves the stripping!
Precisely, Mai!

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 100
09-15-2013, 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
You ever watch an episode of Star Trek (any series) or any of the movies? Just saying.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bridge
I have. But that would seemingly require my to fly from that Oversized throne room, i mean bridge. Instead im 3rd personing my ship.

But as an avid PvE'er i take time and fiddle constantly with my ships and builds. and optimized for PvE is getting ROFLSTOMPED hard in PvP. The other is not true, many PvE builds can be used in PvE rather easily.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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