Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 88
# 21
09-20-2013, 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post
Flying backwards drains power from all systems. So less speed & Defense, less damage, less shield resist and less Aux based heals.

Flying in guns blazing (CRF/CSV) and flying out when it ends and turning around within the 5s downtime and 5k range is a superior tactic IMO.

Also most PVE enemies should die in a single pass outside of group activities.

Sorry for not abusing you. I'm sure somebody will come along and be a jerk.
Small quibble:

Flying backwards for too long drains power from all systems.

the drain doesn't kick in right away, and it is possible to do the couple seconds forward, couple seconds backward dance with no power drain.

No opinion on which is better, just that it is possible.
Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 547
# 22
09-20-2013, 09:49 PM
Sigh. I should know better than to get into this any further. And yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
You yourself gave the reasons why the Quad Cannon mediocrity is not just a PVP issue. ... There are places in this game where it's not simple multiplayer cooperation like STFs / ESTFs. It is about competitive results.
That is completely irrelevant to me. I don't ever play with anyone else. I've been here a year or so and have never teamed with anyone. This is mainly because my playtime is extremely limited - I have to be able to bail at a moment's notice, and I do not like bailing out on a team. So no, for *me* it is never ever about competitive results. It is always about enjoying myself in something that somewhat resembles the Star Trek universe in the precious moments I can spare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
You may scoff at Min/Maxing, but if you enter instances where you are competing against other players, even in the same side, with everything else being equal (including player skill), your Quad Cannons will leave you in a less competitive state.
I'm not scoffing. It simply is not relevant to my playstyle or to my initial question.

Other players obviously enjoy min/maxing, making the best build they can, competing against one another, and so on. And it's great that they can do that here and enjoy themselves. I have exactly zero problems with that. It's just not for me. Will that ever change? I don't know - if that becomes important to me, the quads go in the trash bin. Well, OK, probably at that point the quads would be stuck on the Ar'kala in my 'mothballs' stack and I'd be flying something more endgame-worthy, but you get the gist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
If you don't care about winning against the competition, then by all means, do go on with the Quad Cannons.
Thanks.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 984
# 23
09-20-2013, 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
You yourself gave the reasons why the Quad Cannon mediocrity is not just a PVP issue.

There are places in this game where it's not simple multiplayer cooperation like STFs / ESTFs. It is about competitive results. Results where how much damage you deal during the mission is compared to other players. Fed "Starbase 24" and KDF "Federation Minefield" come immediately to mind. They are limited, yes, but many people do dive into there, esp. Fed side with SB24.
They sure do. I dive in there all the time, well, at least if there's a fleet daily event on. And I've hit first place numerous times with my mediocre quad phasers, 2nd place and 3rd place too but rarely hit below 3rd place. That's with my tac captain flying a Defiant with quad phasers.

'Well Stofsk, that's nice and all, but the plural for anecdote is not data. You obviously were teamed with noobs/scrubs/idiots/bad people so who cares what you think.' Ah ah ah, perhaps so, but all I'm saying is that quad phasers allow you to be competitive in those environments. I'm sure the times I've lost 1st place have been to people running full DHCs and probably using Elachi weapons too, and probably Scimitars with 5 forward weapons and 5 tac consoles to my regular Defiant's 4. In which case... I'm outclassed in more ways than one and I could have slotted a phaser DHC in the quad's place and I still wouldn't have won 1st place if that's the kind of ship and gear setup I'm competing against. Yet I have gotten 1st place, so it's obviously possible to do so using quad cannons - which means they remain competitive, if not optimal, since it's impossible for all things to be completely equal when you have random people flying random ships with random builds.

Quote:
In such a case, even a Common DHC at Mk X-XI has the upper hand in competitiveness over the Quad Cannons. That Common quality DHC will:
* Have an inherent +10% CritD damage bonus, which adds up after a while with Tacs & Escorts blazing away. This mod is naturally found in ALL DHCs.
Yeah but all other things being equal the DHCs and quad phasers will crit about the same amount of times if the DHCs don't have any [acc] or [CrtH] modifiers (which they won't since you've mandated they be commons). Meanwhile for all those times neither weapon crits, the quad cannons are doing more damage.

Quote:
* Not drain your ENG Subsystem Power, allowing faster speeds (and higher bonus defense), better turn rates, all allowing you to be better protected and swing your weapons on target that much faster to blaze away again.
The whole 'zomg -10 engine power per shot OHMYGOSH SO SLOWWW' thing is so overstated. Good thing I've got a hyper-injection warp core?

Maybe this is far more important for PVP, but the guy you're talking to and the examples you've given for PVE content makes this point moot. The fact of the matter is this: you can use quad cannons in PVE and not be gimping yourself.

Quote:
And that's for a Common Quality DHC. If you throw even an Uncommon DHC with either Acc (more hits on target), CritH (higher chance for Critical hits), CritD (higher Critical Damage bonus, on top of the inherent DHC CritD+10%). PVP may highly prefer Acc over everything, but in PVE, ANY of these mods in any number are far, far, FAR superior than the [Dmg] mods, which are found in x4 on all Quad Cannons.
You're overselling it. In PVE, any mod is better than [Dmg] mods, but saying that they are far, far, FAR superior makes it sound like using any gear with [Dmg] is somehow counterproductive. The reality is any mod on any quality gear item, including no mod on common gear, is more than adequate enough for PVE.

Quote:
You may scoff at Min/Maxing, but if you enter instances where you are competing against other players, even in the same side, with everything else being equal (including player skill), your Quad Cannons will leave you in a less competitive state.
I reiterate what I said above, I use quad phasers on my tac captain and have gotten first place in those 'competitive' PVE things.

Now, just so you don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that [Dmg] is a sucky mod. I'd much rather trade that [dmg]x4 for [CrtD]x4. Change that, and I bet all of you will slot in a quad cannon.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,114
# 24
09-21-2013, 12:12 AM
Well, still doesn't change the fact that Quad Cannons have nothing more than [dmg]x4.

While Common Quality DHCs all have, at the bare minimum +10% CritD.

Yes, both Quad Cannons and Common Quality DHCs will crit at the same rate. But when the DHCs do Crit, they will hit harder, thanks to the inherent +10% CritD.

The fact that we are able to favorably compare a Common quality weapon to Quads should be alarming

And I still stand that comparable weapons with mods any other than the Quads' [dmg]x4 are much superior. If one cannot see the benefits of a weapon that has a combination of hitting more, critting more, critting harder, while not impacting your Subsystem Power (and maneuverabiliy, AND bonus defense) as much... then I dunno.

Last edited by warmaker001b; 09-21-2013 at 12:15 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 441
# 25
09-22-2013, 03:15 AM
Starting to think I am the only one on this forum that supports the use of quads, I have never had any issues with them, and they do more than adequate DPS when combined with my other Plasma DC, yes other things maybe better in some ways, that dosnt meen that quads should be writtain off as crap and useless as some are saying, my current cannon build can almost match the dps of my scimitar, I hanvt even got any DHCs on it, and my scimi is using a beam build now.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
I.R.W. Valdore gives 0 (132283) Radiation Damage to Tal'is with Thalaron Pulse. ==> Tal'is deals 132283 Special Damage to Tal'is with Immunity Matrix

Republic Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 221
# 26
09-22-2013, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
And I still stand that comparable weapons with mods any other than the Quads' [dmg]x4 are much superior. If one cannot see the benefits of a weapon that has a combination of hitting more, critting more, critting harder, while not impacting your Subsystem Power (and maneuverabiliy, AND bonus defense) as much... then I dunno.
HITTING MORE? Critting more? Have you seen how many rounds the quads fire compared to the DHC? Im afraid you have your facts wrong Warmaker. If you have good crit as you should in a rom ship, then the amount of crits you get with quads is significant and you must be smoking your mousemat if you think a DHC hits more than the quads. Yes Heavies do more damage and crit higher, but they have such a slow rotation.

I bet you don't even own quads, so how can you gob off so much?

I think they are good, and my Ar'kif does heinous damage. One of the other main reasons to emply the quads is the 2 set bonus from them and the console gives you extra plasma damage AND +30 in energy weapon specialisation, which i am sure you know is a final tier skill and thus very expensive to spec into. The quads are good. Not great, but good.
Rake Morgrave - Federation Human
Fade Akira - Federation Reman
Federation Deepspace Operations Fleet
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first and the lessons after..."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 27
09-22-2013, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post

And it gets even worse if you compare Quad Cannons to Rare & Very Rare quality DHCs.
You need to prove that this is true. For instance, in space, my Adv Fleet Plasma DHC's have a lower DPS value than my quads. That's just for example. You'd actually need to see the entire ACC/CritH/CritD/DAM profile and have a firm grip on the targets defense to make any real calculations. Except actually we don't because of the set bonus. But why be sloppy?

I'm not sure that you understand min/maxing. I believe you are confusing it with stacking. Actual min/maxing is a bit more involved. (Again just for sake of not being sloppy. We don't actually need to do much calculating here.)

For instance Damage Mods. Those contribute to every hit you make. Everyone of them. Including your crit damage. I think you're overlooking that aspect of that mod. (Still doesn't matter, but still let us be tidy!)

Plus Quads boost all plasma energy damage. It increases weapons training. Therefore all incremental damage added by my quad bonus is a direct result of mounting them. So at LEAST plus ten percent to all energy weapon output. Just assuming 2 additional fore mounted energy weapons, whatever they may be, that is an additional 20% of...something.

I'm not sure what that something is, but I think 20% of it would be significant. I mean tooltip shows the quads as being greater in DPS than the DHC's. So it is hard to think they actually perform at LESS than 80% of a DHC.

Anyway, outside of the set bonus, you should never mix quads with DHC's. So in that aspect correct. Quads will significantly lower burst and overall damage done without the set bonus. Ideally they should be used with DC's and the set bonus.

Cheers and all that rot.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 292
# 28
09-22-2013, 11:46 PM
Well, I've been pretty pleased using quads and 4 DHCs on the scimitar, shields are generally healed more often than when i was using 5 DHCs. Enough to make a large difference in a huge firefight.

Peacekeeper High Command
Bylar Crais - Zelbinion IV
Scorpius - R.R.W. Kharibdyss
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,114
# 29
09-23-2013, 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
You need to prove that this is true. For instance, in space, my Adv Fleet Plasma DHC's have a lower DPS value than my quads. That's just for example. You'd actually need to see the entire ACC/CritH/CritD/DAM profile and have a firm grip on the targets defense to make any real calculations. Except actually we don't because of the set bonus. But why be sloppy?

I'm not sure that you understand min/maxing. I believe you are confusing it with stacking. Actual min/maxing is a bit more involved. (Again just for sake of not being sloppy. We don't actually need to do much calculating here.)

For instance Damage Mods. Those contribute to every hit you make. Everyone of them. Including your crit damage. I think you're overlooking that aspect of that mod. (Still doesn't matter, but still let us be tidy!)

Plus Quads boost all plasma energy damage. It increases weapons training. Therefore all incremental damage added by my quad bonus is a direct result of mounting them. So at LEAST plus ten percent to all energy weapon output. Just assuming 2 additional fore mounted energy weapons, whatever they may be, that is an additional 20% of...something.

I'm not sure what that something is, but I think 20% of it would be significant. I mean tooltip shows the quads as being greater in DPS than the DHC's. So it is hard to think they actually perform at LESS than 80% of a DHC.

Anyway, outside of the set bonus, you should never mix quads with DHC's. So in that aspect correct. Quads will significantly lower burst and overall damage done without the set bonus. Ideally they should be used with DC's and the set bonus.

Cheers and all that rot.
It's just the simple presence of what the other mods do for attacks compared to simple damage mods. Yes, Dmg mods increase the base dmg of everything. However:

Accuracy - Increase likeliness of hitting. This is of course, as you know, more of a PVP issue, but more hits = more damage landing. Even in PVE for instance, I hate it when my Beam Overload 3 misses

CritH - Increase likeliness of Critical Hits occurring, to score the big damage numbers we all love so much.

CritD - When Critical Hits occur, this increases the magnitude of the damage done. What's great is that DHCs have an inherent +10% CritD to them, something Quads don't.

If we're going PVE only, CritH and CritD, alone on even a Green, Uncommon quality DHC already gives an advantage. You will either be more likely to hit the Criticals, or make your Criticals hit that much harder, and even more so with a DHC with CritD mods (on top of the inherent CritD trait that all DHCs have). It only gets worse once you start throwing in Rare and Very Rare weapons, then you can have better combinations of Acc, CritH, CritD.

And again, non Quad weapons do not affect your Subsystem Power in the double fashion that Quads do. With non Quads, you can hit just as hard, or harder, and still keep all your Engine Subsystem Power, keeping all your desired speed and turn rates.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:59 AM.