Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,015
# 221
09-20-2013, 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunseahl View Post
At first... yes it was about the contraband.... but then I realized that the contraband chance was minimal at best.... frankly i can make more contraband doing raiding doffs than i ever got from an STF.... Sure... it started with contraband but that was when I was naive about the competency of cryptic.... Now i just want them to actually raid stuff again.... I can make more money other ways but these slavers were a good source of commodities for Fleet holding management... until they channged
Yeah, this is exactly what I've been having. It's not about contraband anymore, it's about pretty much anything. They just don't do a thing. They steal a funny amount of commodities once in a blue moon and that's about it. No EC at all, not that they were stealing much before, but now it's zero.
I hope that the adjustments Borticus talked about would at least fix that.
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Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 454
# 222
09-20-2013, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuxidemus001 View Post
As well they should make a specific raiding type mission to where you can have higher chance of looting.

All my "This." All of it, AFTER, they make the slavers loot more.
Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 374
# 223
09-20-2013, 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuhteb5 View Post
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=567281 -Look under systems and you'll find the release note about the slavers

Let us also not forget that when the slavers were released in November 2011, the dilithium grind was nowhere near as great as it now. Starbases were added in July 2012 and embassies went live in March of this year, not to mention the reputation trees. How much would you venture to say a player spends on average in terms of dilithium between the rep tree shinies, starbases (ships, ground, and space gear included) and embassies?

I need to look up the numbers myself, but let's assume that the average player will only get one rep tree mark 12 space set. That's approximately 20K X 3 (60K) assuming each piece costs around 20K dilithium. Add to that about 30,000 dilithium donated to a fleet's starbase. Add another 30,000 for dilithium donated to a fleet embassy. Add to that the cost of purchasing another tier 5 ship-120K. Add to that the cost of purchasing the advanced orion slavers-30K X 2. That's 300,000 dilithium in total and that's just a modest estimate. Add in special fleet project dilithium donations, the cost of trading in doffs, and the cost of purchasing embassy doffs, and you're talking another potential 100K-200K dilithium.

Compare those numbers to before. Prior to starbases, you'd potentially could spend around 120K for that nice tier 5 ship you wanted and a few other goodies. Let's assume that an average player wouldn't spend more than 200K prior to season 6. Post LOR and assuming players are spending somewhere between 300k-400K on average, that's an increase of 50-100% in dilithium spent over how much it was before season 6. Yes, I know. I am making a lot of assumptions, but in the absence of hard data, we have to make some estimations ourselves.

So what do you think about this? Do you think it's fair for Cryptic to take away easier ways to get dilithium when the average amount of dilithium spent most certainly has shot up since before season 6? Is it difficult for you to stomach Borticuse's internal metric explanation given that demand for dilithium has gone up?
Ok, so dig pre-Nov. 2011. That's a start, thanks. As for those notes, it didn't really say much about the slavers and at any rate I want to see what led up to their creation since they are claiming the looting was never a factor.

And to reinforce other people points....
-It's not about the contraband as much (for us) as the overall worthlessness of the looting. It was never amazing to begin with and ANY nerf to it is not fair to those who spent BIG on the elite ones, but this level of worthlessness is just plain insulting. Items that are paid for should never be quality nerfed after the fact. Even a moderate return to previous quantities is not enough. We want what we paid for.

-Despite claims, we know this IS about Zen/dilithium/contraband (for the bean counters). Otherwise you would nerf something else. That being said, at least be honorable and #1 admit it, #2 replace the lower contraband pulls with RESPECTABLE amounts of EC, commodities, or whatever. 100 ec per pull on elite slavers??? Is that a joke?!? And I do mean respectable, say 100k per pull and we'd shut up. Yes, you are about 1000x off on this.

-Lowering the hull/performance on top of all this is just... well there aren't even words for it. I will use a comparison I have used before. It's like buying a new car that gets 55mpg, only to have the manufacturer show up at your door to "fix" it to only get 35mpg because you were getting too much for your money and it was never intended to get that kind of efficiency. Devs, would you tolerate that quietly???

If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,566
# 224
09-20-2013, 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegashinzon View Post
Ok, so dig pre-Nov. 2011. That's a start, thanks. As for those notes, it didn't really say much about the slavers and at any rate I want to see what led up to their creation since they are claiming the looting was never a factor.

And to reinforce other people points....
-It's not about the contraband as much (for us) as the overall worthlessness of the looting. It was never amazing to begin with and ANY nerf to it is not fair to those who spent BIG on the elite ones, but this level of worthlessness is just plain insulting. Items that are paid for should never be quality nerfed after the fact. Even a moderate return to previous quantities is not enough. We want what we paid for.

-Despite claims, we know this IS about Zen/dilithium/contraband (for the bean counters). Otherwise you would nerf something else. That being said, at least be honorable and #1 admit it, #2 replace the lower contraband pulls with RESPECTABLE amounts of EC, commodities, or whatever. 100 ec per pull on elite slavers??? Is that a joke?!? And I do mean respectable, say 100k per pull and we'd shut up. Yes, you are about 1000x off on this.

-Lowering the hull/performance on top of all this is just... well there aren't even words for it. I will use a comparison I have used before. It's like buying a new car that gets 55mpg, only to have the manufacturer show up at your door to "fix" it to only get 35mpg because you were getting too much for your money and it was never intended to get that kind of efficiency. Devs, would you tolerate that quietly???
What he said! ^
How Picard dealt with ARC_STO Feedback_ARC Wars time capsule
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 46
# 225
09-24-2013, 06:55 PM
wtf

do you know how long i have srcimped and saved dil to get orion slavers
do you know how long i have looked forward to using them
do you know i have just bought and scanned the forum on best way to use to find this Bullcr*p

If you not going to fix this you can take them back and refund my dill

if i bought any item from a shop or store based on the advertisement on the box and it did not do any of the things it was pacifically bought to do as advertised through fault or intention of use by the manufacturer they would e liable under trade description's act to replace with a WORKING version or refund in full
IT'S WORSE THAN THAT IT'S A GAME JIM
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,529
# 226
09-25-2013, 04:20 AM
Sad to say but you should of asked around Klingon Space or Qo'nos you would have been told don't do it and to come here for the reasons. Feds are the Haters and Noobs in this game, the Klingons are the helpful players.

You see the problem is they do work as advertised.

You purchased a chicken to get eggs, the problem is you wanted 10 eggs a day and the chicken only lays 1 a week.

There is no specified rate on these things. Much like Chickens are not guaranteed to lay at a set rate.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,258
# 227
09-25-2013, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post
Sad to say but you should of asked around Klingon Space or Qo'nos you would have been told don't do it and to come here for the reasons. Feds are the Haters and Noobs in this game, the Klingons are the helpful players.

You see the problem is they do work as advertised.

You purchased a chicken to get eggs, the problem is you wanted 10 eggs a day and the chicken only lays 1 a week.

There is no specified rate on these things. Much like Chickens are not guaranteed to lay at a set rate.

Please don't try to justify the devs actions. The adjustment to the drop rates was quite blatantly arbitrary (citing internal metrics doesn't cut the mustard) and we still have no word on whether or not the situation will be rectified.

Also, I think you have your analogies mixed up.

A more appropriate analogy would be that we purchased cows that produce more milk but the milk is of a lower quality (less EC, less commodities despite higher chance of collecting it). If you haven't done your homework, the drop table for commodities, ec, and contraband was adjusted by Cryptic and Borticus confirmed that it was adjusted. Did you bother to read any of Boricuse's replies in this thread?


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post

First of all, Slaver pets have always only had a Chance of successfully pulling EC/Commodities with every 15-second cooldown on their Pillage ability.

* Before LoR = 1%
* After LoR = 2.5%
* PROPOSED CHANGE = 5%

In a sample size of 30 minutes, that's 120 attempts to Pillage. The average number of successes would equal out to:

* Before LoR = 1.2
* After LoR = 3
* PROPOSED = 6

As you can already see, the average number of successful Pillages did almost triple with the changes that came out with LoR. And we're looking at doubling it again, so that Slavers will more frequently return with prizes in-hand.

The big thing that changed to offset this increase in regularity, and to normalize Contraband intake, is the reward tables themselves. I'm not going to post the complete tables here, but I'll share a few details about what the old tables looked like vs the new ones, in general terms.

We examined the odds from both the old and new reward tables, combined with the old and new Pillage success rates, in order to determine the Average EC value a player could expect per 15-second Pillage attempt. Here are our findings:

RANK 1:
Old Avg EC = 5.86 EC
New Avg EC = 12.61 EC

RANK 2:
Old Avg EC = 120.41 EC
New Avg EC = 21.17 EC

RANK 3:
Old Avg EC = 306.7 EC
New Avg EC = 96.71 EC

(For reference, standard commodities have an in-system defined value that we used for these calculations. For Contraband we used a market value of 20,000 EC, and all DS9 commodities are valued at 10,000 except Jevonite which is 25,000.)

Obviously, once we'd performed this analysis, we saw that the LoR reductions to periodic rewards were too harsh. We'd been aiming to give players a similar level of reward per Pillage, despite the Contraband reduction, and our analysis shows that we didn't hit that target. By fairly substantial margin, unfortunately.

As a result of this analysis, and in concert with the Success Rate increase mentioned above, we're looking at making changes to Slaver reward tables that will result in the following new Average EC figures:

RANK 1:
Old Avg EC = 5.86 EC
PROPOSED = 14.37 EC

RANK 2:
Old Avg EC = 120.41 EC
PROPOSED = 133.65 EC

RANK 3:
Old Avg EC = 306.7 EC
PROPOSED = 450.34 EC

Obviously the vast majority of those that have voiced concern in this thread, are particularly concerned with the rate at which Contraband can be gained using the Advanced and Elite versions of these pets. Although those figures are still going to be lower than they were pre-LoR, we are looking at increasing them slightly. As shown here:

RANK 1:
no chance of Contraband (same as always)

RANK 2:
Pre-LoR = 14.64% combined chance, for an average of 4
Post-LoR = 2.2% combined chance, for an average of 2
PROPOSED = 7.83% combined chance, for an average of 2

RANK 3:
Pre-LoR = 10.92% combined chance, for an average of 4
Post-LoR = 2.45% combined chance, for an average of 2
PROPOSED = 8.84% combined chance, for an average of 2

As you can see, the chances of pulling in EC/Commodities are higher under the new drop table, but the average EC pulled under the new system is lower than under the old system. I gather from this that even with a higher chance of pulling in EC per 15 second cycle, you are getting less EC on average because if you add up all of the EC you're getting now, you'd still get more under the old system. So if we were to sum up how the old system and new system compare, less is more. That's why Borticus is proposing to raise the average amount of EC collected. However, he still hasn't addressed the crappy drop rate for the contraband.

Last edited by knuhteb5; 09-25-2013 at 09:31 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 49
# 228
09-25-2013, 10:15 AM
and STOP censoring people
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 295
# 229
10-05-2013, 08:55 PM
face it guys, the only way they're gonig to actually fix slavers is if we all jump onto the feddy forums and ask for a feddy version of the slavers. cryptic will then eventually come up with a romulan version of what we actually wanted, and be something like "reman raider Squadrons" and those will function exactly like the slavers. wait.... no, sorry. that's a horrible idea. romulans would then have raiders and we'd still have broken slavers even with the reman stuff working perfectly. no no no... we'll have to think of something else....

*goes back to pacing all evil mastermind like.*
Timelords Fleet
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,786
# 230
10-05-2013, 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpirko View Post
face it guys, the only way they're gonig to actually fix slavers is if we all jump onto the feddy forums and ask for a feddy version of the slavers. cryptic will then eventually come up with a romulan version of what we actually wanted, and be something like "reman raider Squadrons" and those will function exactly like the slavers. wait.... no, sorry. that's a horrible idea. romulans would then have raiders and we'd still have broken slavers even with the reman stuff working perfectly. no no no... we'll have to think of something else....

*goes back to pacing all evil mastermind like.*
Kind of like everything KDF being broken but the feds will eventually get fully working models lol. Kinda like statements being made by people still with cryptic that are still in high positions who said feds won't get battle cloak or carriers among other things but its all here now. The only thing left would be for them to get battle cloaks for defiant and galaxy-x.
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