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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,584
# 61
09-29-2013, 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalani2 View Post
Anatomically speaking the shape up the knee and the surrounding portion of the leg is noticeably inaccurate. It seems to curve forward towards the bottom portion of the thigh where it should just continue straight down is a flat shape to the knee. In order to make that look right the knee should be wider from front to back as it would be on a normally proportioned person.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3f2ff34a.jpg


Furthermore the shape of the bottom of the thigh and knee are warping some costume options to the point there just plain ugly where they used to look really good.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/...psfd05d289.jpg

In each of the screen shots I've changed the colors of the clothing to make it easier to see the issues I've described.
My conjecture is that Cryptic did not test the new leg models with stances that have bent knees. The above problems may not appear when the legs are straight.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 307
# 62
09-29-2013, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
My conjecture is that Cryptic did not test the new leg models with stances that have bent knees. The above problems may not appear when the legs are straight.
I kind of think these changes were a part of the build that could not be held back when they decided to go ahead and open up the season 8 changes and that there is a Dev that isn't too happy right now because that forced his early work in progress out into the open for all of us too see. It takes at least 2 weeks for the changes a dev makes to get into a build we can see even on tribble and one week after we first got these changes significant progress had been made. They know what there doing here and this weeks patch shows there heading in the right direction. I'm starting think right now were judging a Bakers cake while its still in the mixing bowl. I'm also starting to think now may not be the time to critique the new model but instead now may be the time to politely request realistic changes from the old one.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,540
# 63
09-30-2013, 06:40 AM
Cryptic! Remember... if its not broken, dont fix it.

Just keep the old model, its good. No need to spend resources on breaking it.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 115
# 64
09-30-2013, 07:20 PM
Hey guys, there's another related thread that I posted a response - reposting here to keep everyone in the loop...

Thank you for your continued feedback. We are listening and the proportion changes were an unintentional side effect of other work. And...apologies that the recent revert was not complete.

Soooo...in the *next* patch (or two!) your toons should be back to their familiar selves - except for slightly thinner calves as requested here and internally.

PS - glad you enjoyed the texture improvements!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 205
# 65
10-01-2013, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticjoejing View Post
Hey guys, there's another related thread that I posted a response - reposting here to keep everyone in the loop...

Thank you for your continued feedback. We are listening and the proportion changes were an unintentional side effect of other work. And...apologies that the recent revert was not complete.

Soooo...in the *next* patch (or two!) your toons should be back to their familiar selves - except for slightly thinner calves as requested here and internally.

PS - glad you enjoyed the texture improvements!
Thank you for taking the time out to chime in here and clam the general panic. Please know that we do all appreciate all the work that goes in to making this game the best it can be.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,584
# 66
10-01-2013, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticjoejing View Post
Hey guys, there's another related thread that I posted a response - reposting here to keep everyone in the loop...

Thank you for your continued feedback. We are listening and the proportion changes were an unintentional side effect of other work. And...apologies that the recent revert was not complete.

Soooo...in the *next* patch (or two!) your toons should be back to their familiar selves - except for slightly thinner calves as requested here and internally.

PS - glad you enjoyed the texture improvements!
The complaints about female legs on Holodeck were not just about the calves being too thick. After reviewing the previous threads, I have identified three separate complaints:
  • The thighs are too thin on a character wearing a regular skirt when viewed from the front or the back. (By "regular skirt", I mean any skirt other than the TOS Nurse Skirt and TOS Split Skirt.)
  • The calves are too thin on a character wearing tight pants. Some posters also complained that this leaves a gap between the top of the boot and the calf.
  • The calves are too thick except when the character is wearing tight pants.

The tight-pants calves look worse on Tribble now; I'm not sure why they are thinner than the calves on other outfits. Also, the back of the thigh just above the knee looks anatomically incorrect. To see this error, choose a stance with bent knees, such as "Feminine" or "Cute", and look at the legs from the sides.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,584
# 67
10-01-2013, 12:44 PM
I decided to check if the male character models have also changed, and they indeed have. When a male character on Tribble is compared to the same character on Holodeck, the character on Tribble has
  • shorter arms,
  • thicker hands and fingers,
  • thicker waist,
  • narrower hips,
  • thicker thighs.

Andorian male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble

Alien male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble

Has anyone checked Gorn, Caitians, and Ferasans?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,584
# 68
10-02-2013, 01:43 PM
The purpose of this post is to summarize the complaints about female legs on Holodeck, to examine the changes to the characters models on Tribble, and to point out the problems and bugs that remain after the 10/1 patch. Any comments about Tribble written below apply to the 10/1 patch. Likewise, the Tribble screenshots were taken after the 10/1 patch and before any subsequent patch.


Previous complaints about female legs

In previous discussions on this topic, there were several different complaints about female legs on Holodeck. It is important to note that these complaints are not identical, because a fix that addresses one complaint may not address the others. After reviewing the previous threads, I have identified three separate complaints:
  • The thighs are too thin on a character wearing a regular skirt when viewed from the front or the back. (By "regular skirt", I mean any skirt other than the TOS Nurse Skirt or TOS Split Skirt.)
  • The calves are too thin on a character wearing tight pants. Some posters also complained that this leaves a gap between the top of the boot and the calf.
  • The calves are too thick except when the character is wearing tight pants.

The previous threads about female legs are listed below for reference:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=752701
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=809011
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=839361
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=858581


Female leg models

From what I can tell, there are seven female leg models:
  • Regular skirt
  • TOS skirt
  • Pants - Tight
  • Pants - Loose Long
  • Pants - Loose Knee High
  • Pants - Loose Mid Ankle
  • Robe

The above leg models may not be all distinct. For example, the different styles of loose pants may share a leg model; it is also possible that the same leg model is used for loose pants and TOS skirts. I cannot tell for certain from visual inspection alone. It is clear though that the regular-skirt, TOS-skirt, and tight-pants leg models are all different. The tight-pants leg model has thinner calves than the leg models for the skirts. The regular-skirt thighs are thinner than the TOS-skirt thighs when viewed from the front or back. (Oddly, the regular-skirt and TOS-skirt leg models look identical when viewed from the sides.) These differences are present on both Holodeck and Tribble.


Changes to body proportions

The 9/20 patch to Tribble changed more than just the legs on female characters: it also introduced many unintentional changes to the body proportions. Both male and female characters were affected; boffs and NPCs were affected as well. The 9/27 patch did not undo the unintentional changes, but instead made minor adjustments to the body proportions. The 10/1 patch made further adjustments, but certain differences between Holodeck and Tribble characters remain.

If you compare a female character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
  • shorter arms,
  • thicker hands and fingers,
  • thicker waist,
  • wider hips,
  • thicker thighs,
  • thinner calves,
  • thinner feet.

See the examples below.

Andorian female: regular skirt
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble

Andorian female: TOS skirt
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble

Andorian female: tight pants
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble

If you compare a male character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
  • shorter arms,
  • thicker hands and fingers,
  • thicker waist,
  • narrower hips,
  • thicker thighs.

See the examples below.

Andorian male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble

Alien male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble


Criticisms and Suggestions

As the examples above show, not all the unintentional changes to body proportions were reversed. Male characters should have the same body proportions on Tribble and Holodeck. Except for the legs, the body proportions of female characters should match as well.

The female leg models on Tribble could be improved further. In my opinion, these are the remaining problems with the Tribble leg models:
  • Although the regular-skirt thighs now look good, the thighs of the other leg models are now too thick. The thighs were mostly fine on Holodeck---only the regular-skirt thighs were too thin when viewed from the front or back.
  • The tight-pants calves are too thin---they are even thinner on Tribble than they are on Holodeck. Furthermore, when a female character is wearing tight pants, there is still a gap between the boot and calf.
  • I'm not sure why tight pants, regular skirts, and TOS skirts have different leg models. It would be better if the thighs and calves across all leg models had uniform thickness (with appropriate deviations allowed for the fabric of loose pants and robes).

The "Leg Bulk" slider horizontally stretches or shrinks the whole leg by a single scale factor. But when a person gains or loses muscle, the thighs and calves don't necessarily scale by the same amount. Separate sliders for the thighs and calves would be preferable.

Last edited by frtoaster; 10-03-2013 at 07:47 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,005
# 69
10-02-2013, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
  • Although the regular-skirt thighs now look good, the thighs of the other leg models are now too thick. The thighs were mostly fine on Holodeck---only the regular-skirt thighs were too thin when viewed from the front or back.
Maybe I dont understand you because of my English, but in Holodeck, the only legs that are fine are the ones of the TOS skirts.

Is that what you said, correct?

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Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 115
# 70
10-02-2013, 03:59 PM
Good eye, frtoaster. There are indeed several actual leg models, *and* they are connected in some ways but not in others. Appreciate the detail and clarification on comments.

Ideally we'd like to eventually do a case a case improvement on issues with boots, but that won't be in the upcoming update.

Again, the previous "revert" was not complete. Stay tuned for the female proportion revert in the next update or two.
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