Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 31
11-08-2013, 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talonxv View Post
ofcourse you go to the skill part. You conveniently leave out, size mass, different piviot points and the like. Please continue. This whole skill argument is quite laughable when you're comparing apples and oranges.

Please keep leaving out what's convenient for your argument.
Coming from the person arguing that the Ha'feh is basically an escort seated cruiser, that's adorable. But hey, if you want to get into inertia and pivots...

The Ar'kif and Ha'feh have a 10 point difference in their inertia modifier. 30 vs. 40 respectively. That's right, the Ar'kif has the more sluggish inertia rating. And to put that in perspective, it's the exact same difference between the Mogai and the T'varo (60 and 70 respectively).

As for pivot points, all of the nimble warbirds have their pivot points aft of center. There's nothing unique about the Ha'feh in that regard. It's just more noticeable on the wider winged ships because you have a honking vessel turning in a manner your brain doesn't think it should (Valdore skinned Mogais for example turn basically on the back end of their "tail").

Which gets us right back to "it's not the ship, it's your inability to pilot it".

Last edited by stirling191; 11-08-2013 at 08:56 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,167
# 32
11-08-2013, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Coming from the person arguing that the Ha'feh is basically an escort seated cruiser, that's adorable.
And coming from a person who solely relies on paper stats and completely discounts physics, it's even more laughable.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,563
# 33
11-08-2013, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talonxv View Post
And coming from a person who solely relies on paper stats and completely discounts physics, it's even more laughable.
the model size has nothing to do with Turn rates...... or any other aspect of how a ship performs in combat.... well except the range that enemies can shoot you at...
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,167
# 34
11-08-2013, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
the model size has nothing to do with Turn rates...... or any other aspect of how a ship performs in combat.... well except the range that enemies can shoot you at...
Total and utter crap. Ofcourse it has to do with turn rates. Take two cars for example. Give them the same engine. But make one a foot longer, half a foot wider and weigh about 3/4 of a ton more.

What's going to turn better? Cause guess what, this game still applies basic physics to how ships move.

Guess what. To turn a ship in space you have to act up on it by another force or it goes the same velocity till something acts up on it.

Well considering the Ha'feh on paper has the same turn radius as the Ar'kif, but is bigger ant outmasses it by hell I don't know what factor, it's still going to determine how it's going to operate in space.

Plus going into basic models models have MUCH to do with how ships turn because of pivot points. The pivot point on a Ha'feh is different from ar'kif. Why for me it's easier to keep cannons on target with an ar'kif rather than a ha'feh. It's the common reason why raptors are looked down upon compared to other tactical ships. Their pivot points are horrible compared to some of the tactical ships for the federation or BoP.

This is why you can just trust paper stats. They are the beginning on how a ship is going to function, not the end.
How I feel when I hit Transwarp
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 35
11-08-2013, 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talonxv View Post
Total and utter crap. Ofcourse it has to do with turn rates. Take two cars for example. Give them the same engine. But make one a foot longer, half a foot wider and weigh about 3/4 of a ton more.

What's going to turn better? Cause guess what, this game still applies basic physics to how ships move.

Guess what. To turn a ship in space you have to act up on it by another force or it goes the same velocity till something acts up on it.
The simple fact that you think newtonian physics are actually at play in STO's space combat explains a lot about your inability to comprehend STO's space combat. Or that a wheeled vehicle and a vectored thrust vehicle functioning in a zero gravity, near-zero friction environment are at all analogous, but that's a whole 'nother ball o' worms...

Quote:
Originally Posted by talonxv View Post
Well considering the Ha'feh on paper has the same turn radius as the Ar'kif, but is bigger ant outmasses it by hell I don't know what factor, it's still going to determine how it's going to operate in space.
Size has no effect on turn rate in STO. There is no mass statistic. The closest you'll get is inertia modifier, and that is arbitrarily applied to each vessel with little to no regard for volume, materials and other factors that would in reality change the mass of a given object.

For example, as noted above the Ar'kif has a lower (IE: more sluggish) inertia modifier than the Ha'feh. Yet by your logic the exact opposite is happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talonxv View Post
Plus going into basic models models have MUCH to do with how ships turn because of pivot points. The pivot point on a Ha'feh is different from ar'kif. Why for me it's easier to keep cannons on target with an ar'kif rather than a ha'feh. It's the common reason why raptors are looked down upon compared to other tactical ships. Their pivot points are horrible compared to some of the tactical ships for the federation or BoP.

This is why you can just trust paper stats. They are the beginning on how a ship is going to function, not the end.
Players who are familiar with the intricacies and idiosyncracies of STO's space combat can quite easily look at the stats on a given ship and know exactly how said ship is going to perform with a very good degree of accuracy. Above and beyond that, don't ever assume that someone hasn't flown a given ship.

But we're getting very far afield of the problem at hand: your assertion that because you can't keep a Ha'feh's nose on target, the ship is incapable of doing so. Which is blatantly, and utterly, false.

Last edited by stirling191; 11-08-2013 at 11:06 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,167
# 36
11-08-2013, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
/snip

But we're getting very far afield of the problem at hand: your assertion that because you can't keep a Ha'feh's nose on target, the ship is incapable of doing so. Which is blatantly, and utterly, false.
I never said impossible, I said I have a tougher time than other ships. And it's my point of view. Compared to other tactical ships, I think the ha'feh comes up short. There isn't much you're going to do to change my mind.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 968
# 37
11-08-2013, 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Actually when you think about it, in this case it potentially hurts the "big ones" given they can't benefit from the creativity of the "small ones".
I have little love for lawyers, I've run into some problems that I needed a lawyer to solve that I wouldn't have had without the existence of lawyers.
But as someone who's done some (minor) creative work I'm actually happy that some company can't just barge in and say "this is based on our franchise, it now belongs to us! Here have a cookie and now shut up!"
Don't get me wrong, I do believe there is such thing as "intellectual property". My furstration is that when it is licensed out so readily, and the garbage about what is and is not under such jurisdiction is so muddied, then the laws defeat the whole purpose of why they were created.

An example of this is Dungeons and Dragons. There is the offical lable owned by Hasbro, but then the name is also a generic one as well. This is also the case for medicine when the original formula may be patented, but it has become some prevalent due to generic brands that the offical name is used to describe generic varieties too.

Fortunatly, most of the great works of literature from Shakespeare's works to Count Dracula and more are now public domain and can be used freely by anyone without fear of repercussions. I can hardly wait for the day when Star Trek enters public domain. Too bad that in the US, it is 90 years from Gene Roddenberry's death.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,280
# 38
11-08-2013, 09:36 PM
Romulans could definitely stand to have more ships, as long as they are NOT ESCORTS.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,563
# 39
11-09-2013, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwford View Post
Don't get me wrong, I do believe there is such thing as "intellectual property". My furstration is that when it is licensed out so readily, and the garbage about what is and is not under such jurisdiction is so muddied, then the laws defeat the whole purpose of why they were created.

An example of this is Dungeons and Dragons. There is the offical lable owned by Hasbro, but then the name is also a generic one as well. This is also the case for medicine when the original formula may be patented, but it has become some prevalent due to generic brands that the offical name is used to describe generic varieties too.

Fortunatly, most of the great works of literature from Shakespeare's works to Count Dracula and more are now public domain and can be used freely by anyone without fear of repercussions. I can hardly wait for the day when Star Trek enters public domain. Too bad that in the US, it is 90 years from Gene Roddenberry's death.
Well, there is also a grey area where people run into issues with trying to claim things as IP that aren't really their original creation.
HAIL HYDRA!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Show Archon and Borticus how much you would like to see new Doff races!
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