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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 11
11-09-2013, 08:45 AM
I think PvP started dying quite awhile ago. It's nothing new.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 725
# 12
11-09-2013, 09:08 AM
yep nothing new, but we're still here and we're staying gg have fun and good luck
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Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 407
# 13
11-09-2013, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by z3ndor99 View Post
I myself easily can aquire EC it's not a problem, yeah from a new players point of view this would be a huge sum of ingame cash. In reality it shouldn't be this way, it's one of the reasons new people don't join pvp.
You hit the nail on the head.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 892
# 14
11-09-2013, 09:47 AM
I actively discourage people from joining PvP as an instructor at the Federation Shipyards. The few PvP Fleets like Nova Core and other premades who still enjoy cheesing each other - let them. There are however some honorable individuals who refuse to use any cheese or exploits and who are exceptionally good - those, you want to have them in your friend's list and keep them close. That's about the only viable and meaningful PvP out there, organized private matches. Unfortunately, I can count the number of such individuals with two hands.

Edit to add : I don't consider Nova Core to be a cheesy fleet, want to make that clear
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,746
# 15
11-09-2013, 10:56 AM
People talk about 'expensive this, expensive that'.

Y'know, something most don't think about is...

Anything new that is released that is considered good will ALWAYS be expensive. Period. It doesn't matter when it is released, if people want it enough, it will get expensive.

Honestly, I don't consider the 'cost' to be a limiting factor into PvP. Lockbox ships, AccX3 weapons, Mk XII purple consoles, etc, that is all small stuff in the long term. You don't need the absolute top-end gear to be good in PvP.

What bars entrance more than anything is the grind. Particularly rep grind. Even if, pretending for a moment, we had the resources to give all the best stuff to any new player to PvP, it wouldn't change that the person would still need to grind rep for the passives (and any particular gear they wanted out of it). Also, there's the other big limiting factor, knowledge and skills.

I don't mean that like 'lol, l2p noob' or anything. More that the game really doesn't teach much of anything. Even at level 50, most people just...don't know that much. Not their fault, if the game doesn't teach, it doesn't teach. But it is their fault if they are unwilling to try and learn. Say, if we put a new player into a perfectly balanced Tyler Durden match, in which they would be on a team pitted against an equally skilled team, but the new person refused to do ANYTHING whatsoever and just got mad for whatever reason, even if it was a 15-14 match (win or lose for the new person's team). At that point, it'd be the person's fault for refusing to learn or listen to criticism.

Past all that, I'd say the EC-requirements anymore are pretty small at this point. Sure lockbox ships might be the top of the line most of the time, but honestly, any decent C-store ship or fleet-level ship will do 99% of the time and be perfectly competitive. We also talk about how rep and fleet stuff is power creep, and it is. But it is also accessible to ANYONE.

ANYONE can get the STF sets, anyone can get all the nifty Romulan plasma weapons, anyone can go and buy an Elite Fleet Shield, etc. It's not kept in the hands of a small amount of 'uber-level players'. It's power creep, but it is power creep that anybody can get.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 127
# 16
11-09-2013, 11:27 AM
The time to farm marks for fleet and rep is a big limiting factor into PvP.
I tried to bring some friends from other games in STO, after 2 weeks all are leaving because of grinding. For example in WarThunder players can be competitive from 1st day, with lvl 1 profile/lvl1 plane im with no problems top scorer in matches. Here in STO with every new alt players need to spend weeks to farm for rep and gear.
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Cronos@DrunkUncle
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,035
# 17
11-09-2013, 11:37 AM
Sounds about right... all the top players do the the same. Fed or Klink. Its not hard to see what will happen to new players. Top that off with 3-4 years of experience over a new players and yes its not hard to understand why most of them throw there hands up.

I know I sound like I'm bragging when I say I make 20-50mil ec a day ect ect.... really though I do and I then spend it. Dropping stupid amounts of ec on stupid weapon ideas lockbox ships for the giggles ect. I know people that have decided on a whim to create ultimate healer toons and have dropped insane amounts on one toon. Most of us have all likely done that with out newly minted romulans as well.

I will say it is very possible to put together a toon that can hold its own under 20mil.

Perhaps more of us need to take some of those new players when we see them under our wing more and donate them some gear.

I try to do that a few times a month... it won't make people great pvpers alone. It does help remove a mental hurdle though. I have also found that by helping people with some improved gear it often leads to questions... like "why should I use X or Y" which likely helps them more.
/channel_join Tyler Durden
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000
# 18
11-09-2013, 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Sounds about right... all the top players do the the same. Fed or Klink. Its not hard to see what will happen to new players. Top that off with 3-4 years of experience over a new players and yes its not hard to understand why most of them throw there hands up.

I know I sound like I'm bragging when I say I make 20-50mil ec a day ect ect.... really though I do and I then spend it. Dropping stupid amounts of ec on stupid weapon ideas lockbox ships for the giggles ect. I know people that have decided on a whim to create ultimate healer toons and have dropped insane amounts on one toon. Most of us have all likely done that with out newly minted romulans as well.

I will say it is very possible to put together a toon that can hold its own under 20mil.

Perhaps more of us need to take some of those new players when we see them under our wing more and donate them some gear.

I try to do that a few times a month... it won't make people great pvpers alone. It does help remove a mental hurdle though. I have also found that by helping people with some improved gear it often leads to questions... like "why should I use X or Y" which likely helps them more.
wow 50 mil a day. thats boss man.

anywho,

ya, it can take about a month to get a toon ready for pvp, i can see that. it can also take a lot longer to actually get used to piloting your build and tweek it to your play style depending on dedication.

have fun kill bad guys

-acceptance-
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,068
# 19
11-09-2013, 12:54 PM
It is kind of painful if you stop and look back at it. Much easier just to look at the little snippets that you do along the way.

Ranking up Reputation.
Reputation gear costs.
Ranking up various Fleet Holdings.
Fleet gear costs.
Various Lobi gear costs.
Ship costs.
DOFFs.
BOFFs & BOFF training.
Exchange gear.
Respecs.

Yeah, it's much better not to try to figure out the actual cost involved in getting your toon to where he or she is...when you consider you only have to do that for three "relatively/subjectively" miniscule aspects of the game (NWS, Speed Runs, PvP). The overwhelming vast majority of the game can be played without any Rep, without a Fleet, without any DOFFs, etc, etc, etc - basically just whatever RA ship you picked and whatever random gear you picked up along the way.

Course, truth be told - STO's aimed at an extremely casual player and have set the bar extremely low...nothing wrong with that, it's good for revenue - let's all sorts of folks play that might be put off by a challenging game. Let me pause to state that I'm an average player at best - on a really good day, I might be average - many folks that have run into me in game know that - but for those that don't, yeah - I wanted to pause to state that so folks didn't think I'm flopping about with a whale of an ego. I suck. I know it. I can live with that. So a lot of that stuff that some might see as not being needed for anything but a few things, well - it allows a lot of folks to do things they may not otherwise be able to do. STO wouldn't be moving along like it is if it were just dependent on revenue from Speed Run and PvP folks.

In the end though, it's a definite trip - painful trip - down several flights of stairs - over a balcony ledge - down a few floors - bouncing off the street and getting hit by a bus - only to see your girlfriend making out with another guy...it's a definite trip how different it is between playing one of your geared guys and one of your not geared guys. Things you might take for granted and not even give a first thought much less the second thought...yeah, it's a trip.

Still say that Cryptic needs to RvB the queues and then work out some sort of internal gearscore mechanic to separate the queues after that.

Now, I don't want to make any comparisons to other games - but I do want to offer a comparison....ahem, yeah. It's a dated comparison, but hey - it's a pretty good one imho.

Consider the gearing of a fresh level 80 toon back in WoW after the initial release of WotLK. Remember that gearing was pretty much the same just before the release of Cataclysm. Think about the gearing of a vet 80 toon just before Cataclysm. Then remember the same fun with Cataclysm 80 gear being so much better than the majority of Lich King 80 gear (just like what happened with LK after BC and BC after Vanilla).

If you can remember that...well, take a look at what's going on with STO, eh?

STO's doing the same thing - without the new more difficult content, without the level cap increases...

It's all the gear progression without any progression. That gap between a fresh 50 and a vet 50...heck, the difference between a fresh 50 and a 50 a month or two out...the difference between a fresh 50 with no friends and a fresh 50 with friends...etc, etc, etc.

If we go with a Common Mk IX being level 40, a Common Mk XI being level 45, and a Common Mk XII being level 50...we can extrapolate that (though it's likely wrong, I'm going to do it anyway)...

A Green Mk X = Common Mk XI, Green Mk XI = Common Mk XII...

Green Mk XII = Common Mk XIII
Blue Mk XII = Common Mk XIV
Purple Mk XII = Common Mk XV
Ultra Rare Mk XII = Common Mk XVI

Mk XI to Mk XII = 5 levels
Mk XIII = 55
Mk XIV = 60
Mk XV = 65
Mk XVI = 70

So you've got fresh folks in level 40 ships using level 40-45 (maybe 50) gear...fighting folks that are in level 70 gear, eh? Heck, that's not even taking into account how some of that level 70 gear drank deep from the well of powercreep and is probably level 80 or higher.

Yeah...what do you suppose happens?
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Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2,162
# 20
11-09-2013, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Sounds about right... all the top players do the the same. Fed or Klink. Its not hard to see what will happen to new players. Top that off with 3-4 years of experience over a new players and yes its not hard to understand why most of them throw there hands up.

I know I sound like I'm bragging when I say I make 20-50mil ec a day ect ect.... really though I do and I then spend it. Dropping stupid amounts of ec on stupid weapon ideas lockbox ships for the giggles ect. I know people that have decided on a whim to create ultimate healer toons and have dropped insane amounts on one toon. Most of us have all likely done that with out newly minted romulans as well.

I will say it is very possible to put together a toon that can hold its own under 20mil.

Perhaps more of us need to take some of those new players when we see them under our wing more and donate them some gear.

I try to do that a few times a month... it won't make people great pvpers alone. It does help remove a mental hurdle though. I have also found that by helping people with some improved gear it often leads to questions... like "why should I use X or Y" which likely helps them more.
What I am really mad about is not the amount of money spent - it's the amount of money spent by these very good players who then use this tuner gear to roll pug players. They will destroy pvp. Myself I knew why I died quick - they were a focused team and as soon as they saw me as the biggest threat they 5vs1 ganked me to take out the most dangerous target firstw then easily move off to pick the rest down with a few shoots. 3 feds were fairly noobish - one won't be coming back for sure - the others I don't know.

So why do you spend all this time and money just to stomp newer or more casual players? For Cryptic it's all 'metrics' and this carp is just going to equal more people trying again maybe next few weeks and saying: screw this!

At this point I blame the PvP vets just as much as cryptic.
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