Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 54
# 61
11-22-2013, 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnshadow27 View Post
I would actually prefer to have the BortasQu' stats on My Oddy.

More Crew
More Hull
Worse Turn Rate by only .5
Sure the shield Mod is worse but only by .15
Same Impulse Mod.
Better Inertia.
That seems simplistic: More Crew and Hull is pretty much bought off with the shield modifiers, so I think both ships are even.
Lower Inertia is however worse not better, so that point goes to the Ody. Same with the turn rate (.5 or not, it's noticeable). This has gotten less severe with the turn rate bonus revamp, admittedly.
The Odyssey's advanced slipstream and the Bortasqu's gimped cloak are about equally bad, but I'll give the edge to the Bortasqu here, since transwarp has become so commonplace nowadays as to make slipstreaming nearly pointless.
The ability to equip dual cannons is pretty hilarious on such a slow cruiser, but some people swear on it. I think it's pointless.
The difference in power bonuses and consoles I'll give to the Bortasqu - the Odyssey is supposedly a tank, but STO does not reward tanking at all, the Bortasqu otoh is surprisingly squishy for a battlecruiser but at least it has a noticeable damage output.

Thank god we don't have to compare these to the Scimitar at least, as both ships are really underpowered compared to it.

Quote:
Your Consoles are also Better. Sure you have the BoP and we have the Aquarius. But id reather have the snare or auto cannon than the work bees (they are so much junk).
You are missing the third console - the Odyssey also has the Saucer Seperation, which (thanks to increasing the turn rate by 9 points) is so much better than any console the Bortasqu has it's not fun anymore.

Quote:
I would gladly trade the stats of any variant of our Oddy for putting your Command Variant [minus its sensor analysis] into our Tactical variant.
Sensor Analysis is the best thing about the Command Variant (and that which made me choose it over the tactical one). Why would you want to miss it?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 315
# 62
11-22-2013, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
The ship is not that bad, I would agree. The problem is more the history.

When you look back to the time we got the oddy/bort. The feds got a top of the line cruiser. They did not have a good turn cruiser anyway, other than the excelsior. So mainly they got an upgrade to the ship class that most feds used. Even better, it was the new enterprise. It also was a damn good healer.

What did the klingons get? The bort was basically the opposite of kdf battle cruisers. People used to good turn rates and cannons got giant space whale. Also it was not that easy to buff turn back then.
So to actually use that thing you had to go beams, not the most iconic klingon weapon. If you got your free vor'cha with DHC's, why buy this ship? And power drain with 8 beams was a bigger concern back then. So why not take a carrier instead, if you want a big tanky ship?
While the station setup made a damn good healer, like the oddy, the right console slots to back that up were missing.

So a bit exaggerated: The fed got the ship of their dreams, a new cruiser, a new enterprise that was superior to what they had.
The klingons got a disappointment, a ship that did not fit their playstyle.


Now these days we are again at a point were beams rule and turn rate is far easier to buff. But the station setup is not really good for atb. And if you simply want a dmg cruiser you are probably better of with a Tor'Kaht.

The bort is not really a bad ship. It can do some serious dmg. But it is outclassed by others.
The problem is that the KDF got a ship they had no idea how to play and couldn't follow their own retorts to Fed cruiser captains: learn to adapt.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,992
# 63
11-22-2013, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aveimperator View Post
The problem is that the KDF got a ship they had no idea how to play and couldn't follow their own retorts to Fed cruiser captains: learn to adapt.
No, they got an inferior, gimped version of the Odyssey for the same price in dollars. It's actually showing even more, with the present paradigm than it was at launch.

To be Effective you have to build it like a Fed beamboat, that is, Aux2Batt/FAW build.

the Boff stations work well for that...unfortunately, unlike the Oddy...

the consoles don't.

the introduction of "cruiser Commands" boosted it-mildly, but where an Oddy gets all four, the Bort's getting 3 of 4.

This is a ship that doesn't have the turn-rate to use DHC's even though it can equip them, get it?

IOW it's inferior as a Battle Cruiser and now. it's inferior as a Cruiser as well.

for fifty dollars, it's a ship that can routinely be outperformed in the BATTLE CRUISER role by a Free Vor'cha, moreso by the c-store version, and again by the Mirror version.

in the A2B/faw methods, it's outperformed by the Negh'var.


in ALL cases, it's out performed by Fed equivalents, including it's release-sibling and inspiration, the Oddy.
Not Equal performance or equivalent performance, Inferior performance.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 315
# 64
11-22-2013, 11:38 AM
But the Bortas can cloak and equip DHCs.

The Odyssey can't.

Can't turn well enough to use DHCs? Boo-freakin'-hoo. Neither does the D'Deridex, but people still use'em and Feds have had to deal with bad turn rates forever. You told us to "lrn2play", and now complaints are up about A2B/FAW; how Fed cruisers "adapted" to their crap turn rates. The JHDC turns like a brick too, but people use DHCs on that as well.

Honestly, you Klinks are never happy. You've had content thrown at you every major update and you still scream you have no content. You've gotten more ships, with WAY more aesthetic flavor than the Feds get (Klingon, Orion, Gorn, Naussican, and Fek'iri ships). Sure, fewer C-Store ships but the one that they DID give you, you all HATED because...you refused to adapt and learn how to fly it because it couldn't turn on a dime like the ships you're used to.

Poor. Frickin'. Babies.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,206
# 65
11-22-2013, 12:10 PM
The Bortasqu is easily the best KDF battlecruiser for more experienced pilots, but power creep from ships like the Scimitar and Avenger make it not quite the best all around now.
I can get close to my Scimitars DPS with the Bort, but the hangar and scimitar getting a little more tac abilities and better layout for a2b pushes it ahead slightly.

As for a2b builds, yes the Bortasqu doesn't have the best boff layout for it, bully it neither does the Torhkat, and I don't use a2b on the Bort anyway. It actually is possible to do high dps with FAW without A2B, the Bort is one of the few ships that can do this without a2b.

DHC is easy on it to now because of all the ways to keep your power high and the buff to turn rate on epte, RCS consoles, and impulse thrusters in LoR.
Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,992
# 66
11-22-2013, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
The Bortasqu is easily the best KDF battlecruiser for more experienced pilots, but power creep from ships like the Scimitar and Avenger make it not quite the best all around now.
I can get close to my Scimitars DPS with the Bort, but the hangar and scimitar getting a little more tac abilities and better layout for a2b pushes it ahead slightly.

As for a2b builds, yes the Bortasqu doesn't have the best boff layout for it, bully it neither does the Torhkat, and I don't use a2b on the Bort anyway. It actually is possible to do high dps with FAW without A2B, the Bort is one of the few ships that can do this without a2b.

DHC is easy on it to now because of all the ways to keep your power high and the buff to turn rate on epte, RCS consoles, and impulse thrusters in LoR.
point being, it's sub-par except as a FAW boat, and sub-par compared to Fed ships in the FAW boat role.

"Neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red meat."

see, Battlecruiser pretty much comes down to a role where you have a Cruiser, that uses DHC Effectively, it's "Manueverable" and sacrifices a small amount of hull to get that.

The Bort's NOT fit in that role. It doesn't function well in ANY role, when compared to it's price-peers, generation of release, or even it's present peers.

Once they fix the FAW bug with the procs, it's going to be a HELL of a lot less effective than it is NOW.

forget the Scim-that's OP because they wanted to sell romulan stuff, it's also a later generation design in terms of game development.

Compare it to it's actual PEERS in age, size, and role... and it falls on it's face. It underperforms as a Cruiser, and it underperforms as a BATTLE cruiser.

and it does so even MORE now, than it did at release, in spite of the various boosts you can get from the fleet consoles and rep gear.

for, say, a player who isn't an LTS, it's fifty-five dollars to get a ship that still underperforms compared to an Oddy.

The extra five is for the respec token, and that's if you go with a niche build that relies on a proc chance the Developers have admitted is broken.

If you're spending fifty bucks for a ship, you shouldn't have to rely on exploiting a bug to make it work.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.

Last edited by patrickngo; 11-22-2013 at 12:40 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 67
11-22-2013, 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
The Bort's NOT fit in that role. It doesn't function well in ANY role, when compared to it's price-peers, generation of release, or even it's present peers.
This is the type of mentality that killed the ship.

The Jem Hadar Dreadnought Carrier have a worst turn rate, it have more hull and shields but when they come out what I was seeing was a lot of those dying, any ship can die and the JHDC is not a bad ship, its a harsh to pilot ship.

The Bortasqu' is a heavy weapons plataform, a siege weapon but it cannot move ... the problem is not it cannot use DHCs but rather WHEN it should use DHCs, trying to make it act like a BoP means its not going to work and thats pretty much what the issue, not the ship but the player.

Its not a B'rel yet if its not a B'rel then it seems "its garbage" because of the refusal to fly it as anything else but as a B'rel, the Bortasqu' is better that the Odyssey because the Odyssey is locked out from using their 3 consoles at the same time, the Bortasqu' can use their 3 consoles that have good synergy (well 2 at least).

Reason why the Odyssey had good sales was because Federation players were used to Cruisers and that what the Odyssey was, the Bortasqu' fault is that it was a heavy battlecruiser instead of a another Bird-of-Prey and all complains leveled against it appear to be just this: "Its not a Tor'Kaht".
Former Star Trek Online Player

Last edited by f2pdrakron; 11-22-2013 at 02:47 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 68
11-22-2013, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Reason why the Odyssey had good sales was because Federation players were used to Cruisers and that what the Odyssey was, the Bortasqu' fault is that it was a heavy battlecruiser instead of a another Bird-of-Prey and all complains leveled against it appear to be just this: "Its not a Tor'Kaht".
That is a pretty damning fault. The Fleet Tor'Kaht seems to be the only KDF ship released in the past two years that is well liked. Though, the Bort wasn't well liked even it was released, even without the Tor'Kaht to pull down it's relative rank.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
# 69
11-22-2013, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
This is the type of mentality that killed the ship.

The Jem Hadar Dreadnought Carrier have a worst turn rate, it have more hull and shields but when they come out what I was seeing was a lot of those dying, any ship can die and the JHDC is not a bad ship, its a harsh to pilot ship.

The Bortasqu' is a heavy weapons plataform, a siege weapon but it cannot move ... the problem is not it cannot use DHCs but rather WHEN it should use DHCs, trying to make it act like a BoP means its not going to work and thats pretty much what the issue, not the ship but the player.

Its not a B'rel yet if its not a B'rel then it seems "its garbage" because of the refusal to fly it as anything else but as a B'rel, the Bortasqu' is better that the Odyssey because the Odyssey is locked out from using their 3 consoles at the same time, the Bortasqu' can use their 3 consoles that have good synergy (well 2 at least).

Reason why the Odyssey had good sales was because Federation players were used to Cruisers and that what the Odyssey was, the Bortasqu' fault is that it was a heavy battlecruiser instead of a another Bird-of-Prey and all complains leveled against it appear to be just this: "Its not a Tor'Kaht".
I will agree that the Bortas is a 'harsh to pilot' ship. You really gotta work at it to make it worthwhile enough.

But comparing it to the J-Dread isn't a fair enough comparison. The J-dread is a dedicated carrier, and has a Cmdr tac, so it has similar things to the more recent Scimitar than the Bortas. Yes it is slow and such much like the Bortas, but it also has carrier pets to help it do stuff, the Bortas doesn't have access to those (and the BoP it can launch can only do so much).

I've always treated it like a siege platform as well. Kept DHCs on it despite most people saying not to, and could blast a gate pretty harshly in an STF. Also played with it with beams as well.

Comparing it to the Tor'kaht isn't as fair either, because when the flagships were first released, they were the first 10 console ships (even the lockbox ships at that point were still 9 console ships if memory serves) in the game, and the fleet system wasn't released until later that year. So there was no Tor'kaht, or any other fleet level ships yet. Pretty much, for similar comparisons, we had the basic Negh'var, and basic Vor'cha in terms of BCs at the time.

While cannons have always been an addition to battlecruisers, I think a lot of people chose to run most BCs with beams, even the faster ones. Sure the Tor'kaht was a great ship when it came out, but I've seen a lot of beam-based versions of that ship, and other BCs. So being able to use DHCs has always been more an option, than any kind of requirement, heck, seen a lot of folks say they don't like using DHCs on most BCs because they don't consider many of them fast enough, or have the BO layout to handle them well enough. Ironically, the Tor'kaht and Bortas (if you choose to) have the best layouts for DHCs.

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 528
# 70
11-22-2013, 05:24 PM
I fly the Tac version in my main KDF. I used a 2DHC/2cannons and 4 turrets + leech build for ages before the RCS and cruiser commands changes and while it was more difficult than a raptor/escort it was certainly possible and typically had escort damage and cruiser endurance. With the last changes I am getting a turn rate of 16 with the engine power set to 15, so I don't think it is such a hard ship now.
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