Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 500
Yes, there will certainly be exceptions mentioned. I am ready for that. However, this is one of those rules that becomes more apparent and more relevant the closer it is to being invoked.

What I speak about is the following: If the counter to a certain class/build in an MMO is more of that same class/build, there is a problem. If the optimal version of something desirable (usually damage) is all but uncontested, there is a problem.

STO is probably one step away from this problem (and one step isn't very much). In PVE, since there's no such thing as countering, the second half of this rule applies: bring a A2B energy boat or you're suboptimal. I can not speak for the modern state of PVP, but I will assume that there's a similar problem occuring unless told otherwise in this thread.

This is a problem, largely because MMOs thrive best when there's multiple approaches to handling the same task. Having one role is dull, even to those using it, over time.

This has been seen in other MMOs, absolutely. One of the most infamous (and still hotly defended for some reason) example was pre-NGE Jedi in SWG. Their counter was almost entirely another Jedi. The only exception was very obscure template stacks in groups outnumbering the Jedi. It'd be like saying "the best counter to the optimal ship in STO is two of this ship", which feels inherently messed up.

So, that's my take on it. There's a general game balance rule that is happening right now: a certain template is excessively powerful, hard to counter, easy to implement and dominates the game right now.

Of course there will be a certain "I got mine" population that may chime in here. Fire away.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4
# 2
12-12-2013, 07:44 AM
Heyo

I share your opinion amalefactor.

STO has a really big balancing problem and I hope, no I really hope they will change something in their game design.
Ensign
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 15
# 3
12-12-2013, 07:45 AM
Very good Point, the current state uf the game makes more than 3/4 of the possible options/builds completely useless and 5% of the rest will be more and more powerfull until they dominate and destroy the game
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 4
12-12-2013, 08:26 AM
I put this here to just show how wrong you are about the A2B thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by agresiel2 View Post
you ask and you shall receive

these are values based off the my knowledge and although SOME cannot be proven they can be replicated by members of the DPS channels.

scimitar
(ME) Mal reynolds - 48K NOT aux to bat
numbers@john9987 - 47k USING aux to bat

Recluse
John@corcal - 36k USING aux to bat
john@corcal - 35k NOT aux to bat

avenger
random people from dps channels 35k USING aux to bat
ryan@ezri_carter - 33k NOT using aux to bat

and for continuity's sake lets throw in a cannon build

kumari
Dennis@lilhim92 - 33k NOT aux to bat

all this data is NOT fabricated and CAN be replicated, i may be 1k dps out depending on your parser for my link. but thats only a 2% swing either way

IN CONCLUSION AS HAS BEEN SAID : AUX TO BAT ISNT AN ISSUE

its all about the player and his or her ability.
I snipped a bit off the end as it's not relevant to this thread, however the core part and message in General is untampered with.

One of the things preventing decent balance is the expense of said balancing items as well. Sure you could get very good perform out of a mirror ship and common mk XII items (I know, I've done it) but it becomes more expensive the more you want to deviate from what's popular/easiest to make. More so if you're KDF.

Sure I also agree it has some massive balancing issues, specifically to do with damage, npcs, and science and the way it all fits together. Mainly that damage is king and science abilities do not make up for the loss of running an equally levelled tactical ability. Also that NPCs are extremely resistant to science effects or die so easily that combined with the long cool down the science abilities are a bit meh.

Sure I can get good damage out of a science ship if I wanted but I would be mainly propping up the tactical side and using the science as a sort little bit on top type thing.

This game is already at the point where it's a problem, it's been there for a long time. A2B is only guilty of letting people compete with all the expensive doffs that people have for very little cost in setting up, it has it's weaknesses if you know them but a good player can cover them.

Or as someone once said, when you're at your strongest make people think you are weak, when you're at your weakest make people think you're strong.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,024
# 5
12-12-2013, 09:22 AM
The game is not designed to be balanced. Seriously. Players can have fleet gear, c-store species, lockbox items, reputation passives, etc. The devs dont want this stuff to be balanced, they want it to be slightly OP and even that is questionable sometimes (romulans). Its a social game, you dress up a toon, you fly a star ship, GG.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,908
# 6
12-12-2013, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amalefactor View Post
Yes, there will certainly be exceptions mentioned. I am ready for that. However, this is one of those rules that becomes more apparent and more relevant the closer it is to being invoked.

What I speak about is the following: If the counter to a certain class/build in an MMO is more of that same class/build, there is a problem. If the optimal version of something desirable (usually damage) is all but uncontested, there is a problem.

STO is probably one step away from this problem (and one step isn't very much). In PVE, since there's no such thing as countering, the second half of this rule applies: bring a A2B energy boat or you're suboptimal. I can not speak for the modern state of PVP, but I will assume that there's a similar problem occuring unless told otherwise in this thread.

This is a problem, largely because MMOs thrive best when there's multiple approaches to handling the same task. Having one role is dull, even to those using it, over time.

This has been seen in other MMOs, absolutely. One of the most infamous (and still hotly defended for some reason) example was pre-NGE Jedi in SWG. Their counter was almost entirely another Jedi. The only exception was very obscure template stacks in groups outnumbering the Jedi. It'd be like saying "the best counter to the optimal ship in STO is two of this ship", which feels inherently messed up.

So, that's my take on it. There's a general game balance rule that is happening right now: a certain template is excessively powerful, hard to counter, easy to implement and dominates the game right now.

Of course there will be a certain "I got mine" population that may chime in here. Fire away.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Marion Doff with
quarter master Battery Doffs

do more DPS than

Aux to bat builds

and some add them together.............................!!!!!!!!
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 292
# 7
12-12-2013, 12:02 PM
There was a thread in another sub forum titled "cookie cutter builds" or something that was along the same vein as what you're referring to. I've only played this game for about six months but I feel like more and more, I am forced into particular builds, ships, etc. to feel competitive or to at least keep up with other players. And I don't like it. And it's the player base doing it along with Cryptic as well.
At the moment, it's aux2bat FAW or nothing. An example: last night in two seperate ISE runs from the public elite stf channel towards the end of the run a player posted the DPS numbers for all the players in the chat window. The first poster put up average DPS for the run. The poster in his Aux2bat FAW Scimi parsed 27k dps and change with everyone else including myself in my BoP around 5-6k DPS.
In the other run with two aux2bat FAW Scimis again me and my BoP the poster put the overage dmg done in the match with the Scimis doind 2-3 million and me at the bottom doing 700k. I was told "Hey Grok don't feel bad, the numbers get lower the farther away you are". Something like that.
The thing is, I know how to build and have the resources for a 20-30k DPS Aux2Bat FAW Scimi. But I don't want to. I want to fly what is fun for me and what I feel is challenging. As a normal, conscientious person though it's hard for me to not feel irked or guilty for flying a sub-optimal ship or sub-optimal build when this stuff is constantly in my face. I don't want to be the weak link on a team.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 260
# 8
12-25-2013, 04:58 PM
I think the problem is in the map and map objective which fors players to make these bulds.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 9
12-25-2013, 09:29 PM
While balance is a huge issue, part of it stems from the fact that an engie cruiser can do as much healing as a science cruiser.

Escorts can tank as well as Engie cruisers.

The content is so short, and poorly thought out.

The only thng that has a semblence of challenge and strategy nobody plays often because its ridiculously over the top.

Even the old way STF's where played was far too short. We went from a few hours to do something to it getting done in 15 minutes, and then less as we managed to build crazy damage builds.


None of the content requires an anchor for the battle, that anchor being the tank. It doesnt require a dedicated healer.

You dont have to fight your way to an objective, you just fight haphazardly. a team only in name.

First they need to reduce the Aggro drawn by actually fighting, A tank should easily pull the Aggro away from others especially when specced into it.

A good 5 man should be 2 escorts, 2 science ships and a cruiser to anchor them all together.

For say Hive elite, You spawn 100k or more out, fighting Tac cubes on the way in instead of fighting all 6 at once. With probes and spheres peppering you on the way in. Then instead of the unimatrix ships just jumping in, they are actually just already guarding the area you need to get through to attack the queen.

Limit the spawns of tractor probes and healers for them, the fact that it just keeps dumping them is dumb, having it trigger for some reason would make real sense.

Making content that takes time because there is more to it and its spread out is a great start, instead of bunching everything up and having most of it take place in one spot.

Look at WoW and the way its raid mechanics work.

Then balance out powers once you have people not just pulling out the DPS stops so they can blow through bunched up gameplay......
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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