Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 1 Starship sensors (and ranges)
12-12-2013, 06:59 PM
Given there has been talk now and then about firing ranges being too short, my not add a range modifier to starship sensors, perhaps use 10km as a base and extend it 50% for full sensors skill?

Thoughts?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 2
12-13-2013, 03:45 AM
I can see cloakers hating this lol.

Only thing that makes cloaks so good in this game is because people barely try to detect them, if people started putting points in sensors coupled with the insane amounts of power people run in general and you have a recipe for bad times to cloakers.

But I do like the idea of increasing the engagement range based on a skill.
------
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This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 3
12-13-2013, 05:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
if people started putting points in sensors coupled with the insane amounts of power people run in general and you have a recipe for bad times to cloakers.
Maybe we can make cloakers happy by adding a scaling damage buff upon de-cloaking using starship stealth skill? that would give reason to skill both and depending upon how sensors vs stealth skills are currently balanced it might work out such that there isn't too much gameplay change as regards cloaking.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 4
12-13-2013, 05:23 AM
I really don't think tripling the coverage volume of a FAW boat is a good idea.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 5
12-13-2013, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
I really don't think tripling the coverage volume of a FAW boat is a good idea.
Mmm, but that would be countered by itself, as greater range means greater chance of hitting more targets thus reducing the effective output.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 6
12-13-2013, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Mmm, but that would be countered by itself, as greater range means greater chance of hitting more targets thus reducing the effective output.
Not when you take into account that groups are going to be able to mass fire so much easier. Will individual firepower potentially decline as some damage is spread over more targets? Perhaps. Will group firepower go up as more allied ships can get more guns on more targets? Quite.

Additionally, any kind of range increase is going to be mandatory for PvP. Potentially for PvE too if you extend the range of enemy NPCs. On top of that, how will you balance encounters where a player can potentially just park outside of a target's range and bombard them with zero risk? How will you do that without forcing everyone to take the range increase skill points?

Range disparity is a design dynamic that can foundationally change a combat environment. There's a reason melee dps and ranged dps has to be balanced differently
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 7
12-13-2013, 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Not when you take into account that groups are going to be able to mass fire so much easier. Will individual firepower potentially decline as some damage is spread over more targets? Perhaps. Will group firepower go up as more allied ships can get more guns on more targets? Quite.
While true there is still the range drop off for damage, I'm not entirely sure myself how this would work out, I'm sure someone like Virus or a dev could give us a projection.

Quote:
Additionally, any kind of range increase is going to be mandatory for PvP.
I have to disagree with this point if only for escorts, due to DHC range drop off, I can imagine it being quite extreme at 15km.

Quote:
Potentially for PvE too if you extend the range of enemy NPCs. On top of that, how will you balance encounters where a player can potentially just park outside of a target's range and bombard them with zero risk? How will you do that without forcing everyone to take the range increase skill points?
I would never have a zero risk situation in pve as any stationary NPCs (Cubes and the like) would get maximum range, though mobile NPCs would likely get a range of ranges, given that escorts would have the speed to close range without issue they could forego the extra range while cruisers and potentially science ships (though to stealth detection build this would be a side effect) would be able to use the range buff to get similar results in terms of time to engagement, it would also make life easier for pilots of slow turners such as the Oddy.

Quote:
Range disparity is a design dynamic that can foundationally change a combat environment. There's a reason melee dps and ranged dps has to be balanced differently
I agree with this and I think that (with some balancing work) this could be used to play with the field a bit and add a new dynamic to the game's combat.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 8
12-13-2013, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
While true there is still the range drop off for damage, I'm not entirely sure myself how this would work out, I'm sure someone like Virus or a dev could give us a projection.


I have to disagree with this point if only for escorts, due to DHC range drop off, I can imagine it being quite extreme at 15km.
You really think any player with half a brain is going to knowingly fly into a situation where an opponent can permanently keep them from inflicting any damage at all? Letting an opponent have a 50% range bonus would be insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I would never have a zero risk situation in pve as any stationary NPCs (Cubes and the like) would get maximum range, though mobile NPCs would likely get a range of ranges, given that escorts would have the speed to close range without issue they could forego the extra range while cruisers and potentially science ships (though to stealth detection build this would be a side effect) would be able to use the range buff to get similar results in terms of time to engagement, it would also make life easier for pilots of slow turners such as the Oddy.\
Again, no competent player is going to willingly go into a situation where an enemy can fire on them without compunction. Look at the lances in Hive space. Can you really sit there with a straight face and tell me that anyone would willingly choose to have that kind of a dynamic when they can opt out of it via skill point investment?

With what I know of how STO's space combat works, there is no scenario that I can think of where anyone would be served by not taking the full range increase. Similarly, any kind of tweaks to NPCs as a result of offering said range increase only reinforces the need for taking it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I agree with this and I think that (with some balancing work) this could be used to play with the field a bit and add a new dynamic to the game's combat.
You're correct. You'll be able to clearly see who was stupid enough not to invest in a range increase.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 9
12-13-2013, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
You really think any player with half a brain is going to knowingly fly into a situation where an opponent can permanently keep them from inflicting any damage at all? Letting an opponent have a 50% range bonus would be insane.
Aside from DHCs I can't honestly think of such a situation being dangerous, most weapons would drop off sufficiently in damage by the 15km mark as to be ineffective at best in a pvp situation, I chose DHCs as an exception as they could be potentially dangerous but to keep them on target over a sustained period of time at that range would involve reversing which can't be done half as fast as a ship going forward so 5km ultimately isn't that great a difference, it's a few more seconds of travelling time, the ships I see getting the greatest benefit are slow movers which again will get the gap closed on them very quickly.

Secondly, I never said 50% was a fixed number.

Quote:
Again, no competent player is going to willingly go into a situation where an enemy can fire on them without compunction. Look at the lances in Hive space. Can you really sit there with a straight face and tell me that anyone would willingly choose to have that kind of a dynamic when they can opt out of it via skill point investment?
I'll remind you that the Hive lances have a 15km range themselves (and can't shoot you if you're at full impulse, the flipside being you can't keep full impulse if you fire at them) so lets say you are silly enough to shoot one at 15km, you go poof anyway, thus said mechanic is irrelevant in said scenario.

Quote:
With what I know of how STO's space combat works, there is no scenario that I can think of where anyone would be served by not taking the full range increase. Similarly, any kind of tweaks to NPCs as a result of offering said range increase only reinforces the need for taking it.
Again, escorts move fast enough (in general) to negate a 5km range increase and in most cases cubes and the like don't shoot unless provoked so it's easy to evade getting shot outside your own range.

You're correct. You'll be able to clearly see who was stupid enough not to invest in a range increase.[/quote]

And again, one may not be stupid to not take it, I can think of ways to better spend said points, especially for my escort, I'd rather make it move faster so I don't need the range, as for my sci, she has more costs than it's worth to get a range increase that she can't sensibly use, ultimately engineering boffs (and as a side effect cruisers) will benefit most from any such boost and I would suggest a cruiser pilot is silly to not take it but even then it's a case of convenience, it's not all upsides, there are better ways depending upon builds to spend 22500 skill points.
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