Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 460
# 1 STO does not have "UI Lag"
12-26-2013, 09:09 AM
STO has its problems with lag, but no more so than any other mmo. Most decent connections will typically run STO at under 200 ping, which is acceptable for a game with STO's pacing. Sometimes STO has laggy periods, and those will manifest the same way that they normally do: rubberbanding, feedback delay, etc.

STO does not have a magical monster called "UI Lag" that magically afflicts it with magical tentacles of UI Laggification during normal times. It's a myth that the playerbase has come up with, and that people who ought to know better persist in spreading.

To reiterate: "UI Lag" aka "Input Lag" does not exist.

What STO does have is activation timers and a limited next-activation queue.

On ground, the next-activation queue is exactly one power long. Specifically:

If you have no timer currently running, you will immediately activate whatever power you trigger.

When you activate a power, it also starts a timer that locks out all other powers for a duration. This number is listed on the power's infocard as its activation time. Call this power "Power 1."

If you trigger a power while you have a timer running, it does not activate. Instead, it goes into a queue for your next power activation. This queue holds one and only one power. Call this power "Power 2."

If you then do nothing until the activation timer of Power 1 has finished, Power 2 will immediately activate.

If, however, you trigger a third power (Power 3), while the activation timer of Power 1 is still going, Power 2 will get kicked out of the next-activation queue and replaced by Power 3.

For example:
Captain Picard is fighting the Borg with his pulsewave.
0s: He shoots the Borg with his secondary, triggering a 1.25 second activation timer.
0.2s: The Borg shoots him back for 3/4 of his health.
0.5s: Captain Picard hits his hypo. Nothing happens because he needs to wait 1.25 seconds for his pulsewave timer to finish. Hypo enters the next-activation queue.
1.0s: Captain Picard hits his pulsewave primary. Nothing happens because he needs to wait 1.25s for his pulsewave timer to finish. Pulsewave primary enters the next-activation queue, replacing Hypo.
1.25s: Pulsewave secondary activation timer finishes, and the currently queued action (pulsewave primary) triggers.
Captain Picard's hypo never activates, the Borg smacks him again, and he dies. The Federation is doomed. Captain Picard goes and rages on the forums about UI Lag, even though there is no such thing.

Space is a little more complicated, as it allows two simultaneous power activations and (iirc) another set of two simultaneous power activations in its next-activation queue. However, aside from that it works the same way as ground. The possibility of simultaneous activations and the overall faster activation timers in space make it less noticeable than on ground.

So the next time you are asking for game improvements, remember:

Cryptic cannot change "UI Lag" because it doesn't exist.

What Cryptic can change is power activation timers, simultaneous activations, etc.

This is posted in reference to the thread about kit powers, but as a separate thread because it seems that it would derail the topic away from the OP's questions.

Last edited by guriphu; 12-26-2013 at 09:12 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 2
12-26-2013, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by guriphu View Post
What Cryptic can change is power activation timers, simultaneous activations, etc.
The function of which is somehow affected by connection lag, and it has gotten worse somehow since roughly LOR's release.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,067
# 3
12-26-2013, 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
The function of which is somehow affected by connection lag, and it has gotten worse somehow since roughly LOR's release.
Agreed, what ever the culprit actually is, there are too many times where i will try to activate abilities, both with mouse and key, only to have nothing happen. Mostly it DOES happen when trying to activate multiple abilities in a row, but some times even just aiming for one will fail. It's not the connection or my pc, and other games don't seem to have this issue for me, including CO and NW. To be honest though, with every thing that is horribly broken on the UI like the chat window, channels, boff placement, boff jobs, broken exchange search, broken... we'll just leave it there for now before this becomes a rant, i wouldn't doubt if there were some deeper issue that just cast time or activation. When abilities are refusing to fire at random, instead of the same ability constantly as indicative of a timer, than i'm more inclined to think something is wrong with the system.

The same system that is already horribly broken and only breaking further instead of being fixed at all.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 4
12-26-2013, 04:01 PM
Um, going to have to disagree. I recently recorded two videos for another topic, and it's impossible not to see the issue of UI lag with the software used to record. Screencast-O-Matic will drop a blue dot at the location of your mouseclicks - and - you can see that the blue dot without the ability registering the click at times.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 5
12-26-2013, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Um, going to have to disagree. I recently recorded two videos for another topic, and it's impossible not to see the issue of UI lag with the software used to record. Screencast-O-Matic will drop a blue dot at the location of your mouseclicks - and - you can see that the blue dot without the ability registering the click at times.
Bingo Bango give the man a cookie. Even if doing it from keys it has problems, not just clicking.

If they had this mechanic in game, it should show ingame that you cannot hit the next power. Like oh i dont know, something like when a power goes off CD, you get that scrolling line over it.

It sucks when you are trying to stay alive by hitting your powers that arent on CD and none of them activate and you die because the game said oh the 1 second from your TT has gone away...... Thats Bull***t
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,115
# 6
12-26-2013, 05:28 PM
STO absolutely has horrid UI unresponsiveness. It extends even beyond powers or combat. Even basic UI buttons fail to register clicks. Many times you will click on a button to bring up the inventory, the mission journal, whatever, and the click simply does not register at all and you will have to pound the button multiple times to get it to respond. You can't even blame that on some combat command queue or network lag: It isn't combat and we're talking about basic UI elements local to the game client.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,866
# 7
12-26-2013, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by guriphu View Post
Cryptic cannot change "UI Lag" because it doesn't exist.
What you don't experience, doesn't mean it that it does not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Um, going to have to disagree. I recently recorded two videos for another topic, and it's impossible not to see the issue of UI lag with the software used to record. Screencast-O-Matic will drop a blue dot at the location of your mouseclicks - and - you can see that the blue dot without the ability registering the click at times.
Opinion versus proof ^^ = proof always win.
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Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 335
# 8
12-26-2013, 05:40 PM
That UI lag is there, trust me. PVP players know this. It maybe hard for PVE players to notice. There's no pressure in PVE, no rush to hit buffs fast and constant.

I never had UI lag in ground combat strangely.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 9
12-26-2013, 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atlantra View Post
That UI lag is there, trust me. PVP players know this. It maybe hard for PVE players to notice. There's no pressure in PVE, no rush to hit buffs fast and constant.

I never had UI lag in ground combat strangely.
Play sci ground and trying to save your skin in a pinch....
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,335
# 10
12-26-2013, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by guriphu View Post

To reiterate: "UI Lag" aka "Input Lag" does not exist.

Most players have experienced this though. The difficulty here is that the terminology is a bit loose. If you've ever moved an item from inventory to say an equipment slot on a ship in the ship selection UI, you've seen some measure of latency. If you've never done that, you should. It certainly isn't intended behavior. And because it isn't intended behavior I don't believe it is possible for us as individuals to determine that it does or does not occur in other instances of gameplay.

In other words, hard saying not knowing.


What STO does have is activation timers and a limited next-activation queue.

Well that's interesting. STO never adopted a true global cooldown and therefore we have this system of activation timers. I'm pretty sure most of us know that this exists. As far as the game allowing simultaneous activations and having a que I am unsure. You're looking at eyeballing half and one second activation timers so right off the bat I'm going to say that that is a tough determination to make without a meter. If you can show us this as it occurs or link the dev post, that's different. Then we could all go over it.

One thing that has been suggested is that if you try to trigger abilities too quickly you essentially bugger the entire thing. I don't try to break the one second barrier any longer as I wish to avoid that sort of thing. It would be unusual I think to have a system that actually took two inputs at the exact same time. So by not strictly locking that option out via a UI visible Global Cooldown (the scrolly lines) there may (or may not be) the potential for high load buggy behaviour.

In other words, don't mash buttons.


So the next time you are asking for game improvements, remember:

Cryptic cannot change "UI Lag" because it doesn't exist.

Sure they could. All systems have latency, and in some instances STO's is marked.

What Cryptic can change is power activation timers, simultaneous activations, etc.

Of course. They could implement a true global. I don't see that happening though. Seriously it is the industry standard, so I'm sure it isn't an accident that it wasn't included in the original design.

This is posted in reference to the thread about kit powers, but as a separate thread because it seems that it would derail the topic away from the OP's questions.
There was once a lengthy post stating that the activation timers were a global. They aren't.

"If they had this mechanic in game, it should show ingame that you cannot hit the next power. Like oh i dont know, something like when a power goes off CD, you get that scrolling line over it."

That would be.

EDIT: I can't really be sure what steps, if any, Cryptic takes to discourage scripts, bots, or otherwise discourage player automation of the game. "Magical UI Lag" could be one of those steps. Not saying it IS, just saying it could be.

DOUBLE EDIT: Wow. I've approached Virus levels of boredom, and Antoinocelery ratings of pomposity. Good times. Maybe I should actually go play STO.
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Last edited by thissler; 12-26-2013 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Clarity and PURPOSE
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