Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
01-17-2010, 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacnKill
+1 vote for Mac native client

While it would be nice for a native mac/linux, the issue is that DirectX is a MS product and i believe the game has a lot of calls to it. Xfree and OS X has different architecture, so you would almost have to start with new code for native client.

The easiest way for Mac OS X is to wrap a wine client around it, like Cegeda does in CoX with Cider.

While Cegeda does not give back code to WINE, it is still a vastly more mature interface than Crossover, and with EQ2, I found wine = winehack to be easier and better than the paid product (for EQ2 at least)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
01-17-2010, 12:24 PM
A native client for Mac and Linux is out of the question for the reason stated earlier, it uses DirectX. However, making the program a tad more agreeable with Wine, Cedega, and other APIs would really be the only option they have in the event that they wished to open up to our little slice of the market.

I'm quite happy with the way things are going now. they have their priorities straight.
1) stabilize the product aimed for the greatest market share (windows)
2) consider cooperations with other platform APIs.
3) ??
4) profit
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
01-17-2010, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by S31-Syntax View Post
A native client for Mac and Linux is out of the question for the reason stated earlier, it uses DirectX. However, making the program a tad more agreeable with Wine, Cedega, and other APIs would really be the only option they have in the event that they wished to open up to our little slice of the market.

I'm quite happy with the way things are going now. they have their priorities straight.
1) stabilize the product aimed for the greatest market share (windows)
2) consider cooperations with other platform APIs.
3) ??
4) profit
Agreeing that they probably won't have a native client out, but I do wonder exactly why the errors we are seeing are cropping up. I'm still just a CS student and haven't done any game programming, but I know that WINE is supposed to handle windows system calls and whatnot just like a native OS would, which makes me think that some of the code used in the STO game engine has either malformed or esoteric lines of code. If that is the case, I'd wish that they had cleaned up / standardized the code a little more (I'm sure it would help overall stability), but I understand that *nix architectures have inherently better memory management, and if the problem truly lies in memory allocation issues, the less improved windows memory tools may not translate well into wine-approved ones.

@our dev friend, I'm assuming you're not giving us detailed explanations because you are a representative of cryptic, and for some reason you can't be direct with us. However, if you can speak freely, is there any real chance of the designers even trying to boot into linux, running the client on wine, and seeing the errors for themselves? Even one dev trying this at home for fun could be able to say to us "yeah, I tried it, I can see that it is not working, and I think the problem is with how we handle _____." Not everyone posting is technically minded, but some of us are, and it would be supremely cool to hear a dev actually say to us that they acknowledge the problem, and then tell us the actual cause. I have tried asking this of the WoW devs, and their answer is still phrased in the way that I explain programming to my parents (it is magic / works that way because thats the way it is).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
01-17-2010, 04:48 PM
So... a thought, and feel free to correct me as i'm just thinking out loud, but the error complains of a failed heap validation... how practical would it be to tell it to not validate it?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
01-17-2010, 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobox
Agreeing that they probably won't have a native client out, but I do wonder exactly why the errors we are seeing are cropping up. I'm still just a CS student and haven't done any game programming, but I know that WINE is supposed to handle windows system calls and whatnot just like a native OS would, which makes me think that some of the code used in the STO game engine has either malformed or esoteric lines of code. If that is the case, I'd wish that they had cleaned up / standardized the code a little more (I'm sure it would help overall stability), but I understand that *nix architectures have inherently better memory management, and if the problem truly lies in memory allocation issues, the less improved windows memory tools may not translate well into wine-approved ones.

@our dev friend, I'm assuming you're not giving us detailed explanations because you are a representative of cryptic, and for some reason you can't be direct with us. However, if you can speak freely, is there any real chance of the designers even trying to boot into linux, running the client on wine, and seeing the errors for themselves? Even one dev trying this at home for fun could be able to say to us "yeah, I tried it, I can see that it is not working, and I think the problem is with how we handle _____." Not everyone posting is technically minded, but some of us are, and it would be supremely cool to hear a dev actually say to us that they acknowledge the problem, and then tell us the actual cause. I have tried asking this of the WoW devs, and their answer is still phrased in the way that I explain programming to my parents (it is magic / works that way because thats the way it is).
I can say with 99% certainty we won't ever have a native client. To retrofit all the Win32-ness out of our code (not just Dx, memory handling, input code, file system access, network APIs, etc etc) would be a fairly colossal undertaking. As for testing with Wine ourselves, we also have no plans to do that, mostly just because we don't have the manpower for it. If some dev wanted to take a stab at it in their free time, I'm sure no one here would have a problem with it, but obviously thats not something that you can rely on or expect to ever happen (personally I do a lot of other FOSS stuff in my free time, hard to find time for more projects without my girlfriend taking an axe to my computer, can't speak for anyone else though). As for why the game doesn't work in Wine, it isn't an issue of malformed code, its just that Wine isn't that good of an emulator given the full scale of the problem. It does its best, but plenty of things in Wine don't work the same way as they do in Windows.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
01-17-2010, 05:28 PM
Have you guys ever considered Cider from Transgaming?

It's a dx-wrapper that Ubisoft and EA use to port their games to Mac. Some noteworthy games are Dragonage from Bioware, and Warhammer Online. Even City of Heroes are available on Mac's through this.

PS
Sorry if someone asked this already.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
01-17-2010, 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderanger
I can say with 99% certainty we won't ever have a native client. To retrofit all the Win32-ness out of our code (not just Dx, memory handling, input code, file system access, network APIs, etc etc) would be a fairly colossal undertaking. As for testing with Wine ourselves, we also have no plans to do that, mostly just because we don't have the manpower for it. If some dev wanted to take a stab at it in their free time, I'm sure no one here would have a problem with it, but obviously thats not something that you can rely on or expect to ever happen (personally I do a lot of other FOSS stuff in my free time, hard to find time for more projects without my girlfriend taking an axe to my computer, can't speak for anyone else though). As for why the game doesn't work in Wine, it isn't an issue of malformed code, its just that Wine isn't that good of an emulator given the full scale of the problem. It does its best, but plenty of things in Wine don't work the same way as they do in Windows.
Isn't the entire point of wine isn't that it isn't an emulator and it's supposed to be a bug for bug reimplementation of the win32 api? Isn't pure ABI compatibility so all things windows would work the ultimate goal?

Although now at least we know that there won't ever be a mac client
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
01-17-2010, 06:59 PM
*hugs Girdus*

Its okay...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
01-17-2010, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girdus
Isn't the entire point of wine isn't that it isn't an emulator and it's supposed to be a bug for bug reimplementation of the win32 api? Isn't pure ABI compatibility so all things windows would work the ultimate goal?

Although now at least we know that there won't ever be a mac client
Mac client != native client :-P Or at least it doesn't have to mean native client. Wine's goal is to be a perfect Windows emulator, but that isn't to say it already is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
01-17-2010, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderanger
Mac client != native client :-P Or at least it doesn't have to mean native client. Wine's goal is to be a perfect Windows emulator, but that isn't to say it already is.
LOL

Anyways, its too bad that there is a lot more wrong with the way wine handles the game than just a few simple fixes. I hope I get enough schooling to understand more of the concepts involved, as this seems pretty damn fun. Someone tell me if this game is worth it to pir- er, buy a copy of windows just to play sto on.
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