Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 11
02-25-2014, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rck01 View Post
I'm not calculating anything. I'm punching numbers into the "Magical Mystery Weapon Crit Advisor" site referenced by ehrlehn earlier in the thread and then reading back the results to anyone interested.

RCK
Hrmmm, okay then...

So if we set the target's Defense to 30 on that site, it removes the accuracy overflow - so we get the base numbers that match up (20.6%/104%) more or less.

We drop the Defense to 20, it's adding +1.3% CrtH and +5% CrtD.

The site's doing it wrong. It's calculating the amount based on difference between Accuracy and Defense, rather than on the Accuracy Overflow from the %ToHit. Accuracy Overflow is the amount above the 100% ToHit...it's not just Accuracy being higher than Defense.

That's why the numbers are too high...

edit: Hate that BlackWyvern's site is down, he had a page that does the correct calculation without having to do all the copy/paste/manual work that one has to do with the spreadsheet that Cryptic put out and Big Red explained...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-25-2014 at 10:05 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 316
# 12
02-25-2014, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
How are you calculating the Accuracy Overflow?

Accuracy - Defense = X

%ToHit =2-(1/(1+X))

%ToHit - 1 = Y

CrtH Bonus = Y * 0.125
CrtD Bonus = Y * 0.5

So with 55% Bonus Accuracy vs. 0% Bonus Defense...

0.55 - 0.00 = 0.55
2 - (1 / (1 + 0.55)) = 2 - (1 / 1.55) = 2 - 0.64516129032258064516129032258065 = 1.3548387096774193548387096774194
1.3548387096774193548387096774194 - 1 = 0.35483870967741935483870967741935
0.35483870967741935483870967741935 * 0.125 = 0.04435483870967741935483870967742
0.35483870967741935483870967741935 * 0.5 = 0.17741935483870967741935483870968

0.04435483870967741935483870967742 * 100 = 4.435483870967741935483870967742%
0.17741935483870967741935483870968 * 100 = 17.741935483870967741935483870968%

CrtH +4.43%/4.44% depending on how you round - and - CrtD +17.74%....

Not being arsey, but how sure of the maths with that are you?

From a quick look, that's how I've been calculating it for a year or so, from various bits of info knocking about, but its the first time I've seen it states as explicitly as that.
Exploding in a massive ball of fire and wreckage since 2012.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 13
02-25-2014, 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shandypandy View Post
Not being arsey, but how sure of the maths with that are you?

From a quick look, that's how I've been calculating it for a year or so, from various bits of info knocking about, but its the first time I've seen it states as explicitly as that.
From this thread: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=218273

First post...Big Red's explanation and the info at the bottom:

Quote:
On the flip-side, assume that you still have no inherent Accuracy modifiers, but your target is stopped (and taking a -15% Defense penalty, or -.15), plugging in 1.00 into the Accuracy box, and .85 into the Defense box, you get 0.15 as your Diff score. Since this is positive, you would look in the If Diff Positive box, and get "1.13..." as your result... Meaning you have 'Accuracy Overflow'... You have 100% chance to-hit your target, and, if you look in the lower-right hand portion of the spreadsheet, you can look on the Accuracy Overflow table, and look at the entry for 0.1 (since your overflow is 0.13-ish)... You would gain a little more than 1.25% Critical Chance, and a little more than 5% Critical Severity.
I do miss BlackWyvern's site, think it went down at some point Feb with the GoDaddy thing popping up - looks like he just stopped paying either for the hosting or the domain.

But basically what I do with the spreadsheet to do it manually is...

I copy the ToHit value (1.xx), do a right-click paste special number (since I don't want to copy the formula, just the result of the formula) over to the table where it lists the various amounts. I subtract 1 from that number (usually just deleting the 1 in front of the decimal point) and it will give me the CrtH/CrtD amounts rather than an approximation.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 116
# 14
02-25-2014, 10:49 AM
With the crit calc site, I keep the acc/def portion at zero since any actual acc overflow during a match can vary too wildly. the numbers without any acc overflow stuff seem to match up well enough.
---------------------------------------------
Unabashed Ker'rat Junkie
Derrick - Fed Eng
Der'rick - KDF Tac
Career Officer
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Posts: 702
# 15
02-25-2014, 11:04 AM
Unless the devs themselves come on here and post the formula and numbers themselves, then all ypullbget from these links and posts is speculation and guesses. Just out of curiosity, what does it matter? Why do you really want to know? Even if you get the answers directly from the devs, that's only half of the equation. You still have to know exactly what's going on with whatever it is you're attacking. So, essentially, you'll never get the outcome you expect because there are variables you simply can't account for all the time. For instance, 1 Borg cube in cure space is not going to be the same as a cube in infected space, or khitomer. And if it comes to other players, then just give up now, because there's all kinds of equipment that does so many different things to throw off the equation.I think its best to just let it go and enjoy the game
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 16
02-25-2014, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghyudt View Post
Unless the devs themselves come on here and post the formula and numbers themselves, then all ypullbget from these links and posts is speculation and guesses.
The link to the thread by Big Red...is about the spreadsheet from Geko.

Just saying...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,593
# 17
02-25-2014, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghyudt View Post
Unless the devs themselves come on here and post the formula and numbers themselves, then all ypullbget from these links and posts is speculation and guesses. Just out of curiosity, what does it matter? Why do you really want to know? Even if you get the answers directly from the devs, that's only half of the equation. You still have to know exactly what's going on with whatever it is you're attacking. So, essentially, you'll never get the outcome you expect because there are variables you simply can't account for all the time. For instance, 1 Borg cube in cure space is not going to be the same as a cube in infected space, or khitomer. And if it comes to other players, then just give up now, because there's all kinds of equipment that does so many different things to throw off the equation.I think its best to just let it go and enjoy the game
The devs have posted formulas before. That's where much of this knowledge comes from. The rest comes reverse engineering by players. Yes, actual combat is complicated by many variables. Most people who engage in this type of mathematical analysis understand that it's a simplification. Some of us just like to understand how things work, regardless of whether it helps you kill something faster or not.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,714
# 18
02-25-2014, 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
The devs have posted formulas before. That's where much of this knowledge comes from. The rest comes reverse engineering by players. Yes, actual combat is complicated by many variables. Most people who engage in this type of mathematical analysis understand that it's a simplification. Some of us just like to understand how things work, regardless of whether it helps you kill something faster or not.
For me, things are just practical. Do I want 24.9%/117.5% CrtH/CrtD? Or 22.3%/125.5%?

Math and I are not good friends; still, I'm surprised the ppl in this forum that *are* good at math have such a hard time figuring out the optimal balance. You'd think that be a very trivial optimum to calculate.
Captain
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Posts: 1,593
# 19
02-25-2014, 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meimeitoo View Post
For me, things are just practical. Do I want 24.9%/117.5% CrtH/CrtD? Or 22.3%/125.5%?

Math and I are not good friends; still, I'm surprised the ppl in this forum that *are* good at math have such a hard time figuring out the optimal balance. You'd think that be a very trivial optimum to calculate.
In actual combat, there are many variables in play, and the variables change value during combat as well. For instance, you won't know exactly what your target's defense will be; maybe, you could make a reasonable guess though. Also, some things are subjective. Do you want more offense or more defense? There isn't really a right answer.

And though you probably won't encounter such problems in STO, there are actually many problems in mathematics that are simple to state, but remain unsolved. Some of them are optimization problems. A large class of such optimization problems is actually one of the biggest open questions in computer science.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 582
# 20
02-25-2014, 09:26 PM
So, if the "Magic Crit" site is incorrect, then we're back to my original question:

How do I calculate my CritH and CritD values?

Note: I'm not trying to calculate total expected damage or any other derivative. I just want to know how to calculate the final percentage for each - CritH and CritD - factoring in consoles, passives, weapon modifiers, etc. I can then compare my values with others to see if my builds are lacking in some respect.

In other words, when somebody says they have a "CritH of X% and a CritD of Y%," how the hell did they come up with those "X and Y" values when the game UI is borked and doesn't properly reflect them in the Attack tab?

RCK
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