Captain
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,310
# 51
02-24-2014, 11:44 PM
Actually lets take this a step further.

Lets use real in game numbers, or at least rounded ones so the math is easy to follow.

Lets say a ship has 20 percent crit and 100 severity without exploiters or locators and a weapon with a base damage of 1000 per shot. Lets not look at any other factor, we just have those three numbers.

Without any console critH or critD (lets ignore the 31.9 damage bit for this as both have the same there anyway)

100000 shots
80000 shots will be for 1000 = 80 million damage
20000 shots will be for 2000 = 40 million damage

So this ship does 120,000,000 damage in those 100,000 shots fired. Okay. The baseline is 120 million.

Exploiters added

We now have a crit chance of 20 with a severity of 140

100000 shots
80000 shots will be for 1000 = 80 million damage
20000 shots will be for 2400 = 48 million damage

128 million

We have added 8 million damage, an 8 percent increase in damage output.

Swap in locators

We now have a crit chance of 28 and a severity of 100

72000 shots will be for 1000 = 72 million damage
28000 shots will be for 2000 = 56 million damage

128 million

We have added 8 million damage, an increase in damage output over base of 8 percent, BUT the exact same as the exploiter console.



As you can see, you can add either console and get the same damage increase, BUT because crit chance has more sources outside of the consoles, using them for the chance mod is not an optimal idea. The exploiters bring us very very close to the cap of 177-182, meaning we have to use fewer mods elsewhere to achieve maximum severity.



Summary - if you already have the exploiter consoles you MAY see a decrease in damage if you swap to locators, but if you have neither of them yet, add the one you need more of. In the case of a romulan you are likely much better off getting the exploiters. If you have less than say 20 percent crit now and have exhausted all of your other sources of crit chance, then the locators may be your best bet.



Thanks for playing noblet. 1.6% chance is not better than 8 severity. Its not half a mod, full mod this, mod sideways that, etc. Do you even know why? They are actually EQUAL to each other because crit severity is actually translated as 100 + severity times base. Or Base (1+x) where x is severity in notation 1.0 for 100 severity. IE, a 120 severity would be notated as Base (1+1.2) or base times 2.2.

If you have a critsev under 100, the lost critD actually negatively affects your crits, whereas the opposite is true of critsev over 200, in which you would finally be right, a 1.6 crit chance WOULD be higher than 8 severity, but we cant even get there unless we have capped sev with APA up and even then we are BARELY going over the 200 mark for only 30 seconds.
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Vice Admiral Kailiana - R.R.W. DNT Theta X || Vice Admiral Talina - I.R.W. DNT Tau X
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Last edited by rylanadionysis; 02-24-2014 at 11:55 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,015
# 52
02-25-2014, 03:42 AM
your other thread illustrates it better.

if you can't reach 20% crtH, without counting tac consoles and weapon mods, which is the case for most KDF and FED players, locators are better.
above 20% base crtH, all you want to do is increase your crtD...

in any case, crtD weapon mods > crtH weapon mods when your base crtH is already above 20% crtH.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,472
# 53
02-25-2014, 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
your other thread illustrates it better.

if you can't reach 20% crtH, without counting tac consoles and weapon mods, which is the case for most KDF and FED players, locators are better.
above 20% base crtH, all you want to do is increase your crtD...

in any case, crtD weapon mods > crtH weapon mods when your base crtH is already above 20% crtH.
CrtD vs crtH is correct. Exploiter vs locator is wrong. Unless you have zero sources of crit severity from consoles/set bonus or acc overflow, as well as didn't max out skill for some reason, exploiter's half bonus will never outweight locators. They need a fix badly.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,015
# 54
02-25-2014, 04:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noblet View Post
CrtD vs crtH is correct. Exploiter vs locator is wrong. Unless you have zero sources of crit severity from consoles/set bonus or acc overflow, as well as didn't max out skill for some reason, exploiter's half bonus will never outweight locators. They need a fix badly.
no, you see, crtH and crtD ratio is not linear...at a certain point (in this case 20% crtH) crtD becomes more valuable than an additional crtH.

that means in order to keep the mods balanced cryptic needed to reduce the amount of crtD on the consoles to make crtH competitive for builds that feature above 20% base crtH.

i was allways under the impression that this point was somewhere beyond 30% base crtH, but judging from the calculations rylanadionysis did, this point is infact much lower.


however, most people are miles away from this point anayway.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,472
# 55
02-25-2014, 04:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
no, you see, crtH and crtD ratio is not linear...at a certain point (in this case 20% crtH) crtD becomes more valuable than an additional crtH.

that means in order to keep the mods balanced cryptic needed to reduce the amount of crtD on the consoles to make crtH competitive for builds that feature above 20% base crtH.

i was allways under the impression that this point was somewhere beyond 30% base crtH, but judging from the calculations rylanadionysis did, this point is infact much lower.


however, most people are miles away from this point anayway.
Of course, which is why I said it's right regarding crtH and crtD weapon modifier, just not the Exploiter's half bonus. Unless someone managed to get impossibly high crit chance while at the same time somehow avoiding crit severity like the plague, Exploiter's half bonus will never match locator.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,015
# 56
02-25-2014, 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noblet View Post
Of course, which is why I said it's right regarding crtH and crtD weapon modifier, just not the Exploiter's half bonus. Unless someone managed to get impossibly high crit chance while at the same time somehow avoiding crit severity like the plague, Exploiter's half bonus will never match locator.
well, not necessarely, when crtD weapon mods are not an option (PVP). In this case, exploiter consoles are the only possible way to increase crtD.

in my opinion for PVE it is locator consoles with crtD weapon mod the optimum, no matter what values you have (asuming you reach >15% base crtH)

the hard decission lies only with the PVP setup, where ACC weapon mod is vital, and so they lose a lot of crtD.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,310
# 57
02-25-2014, 08:30 AM
Indeed, it is merely a raw DPS question at this point. For PvP you ought to be using exploiters full stop. Its been tested repeatedly and locators are really bad in the arenas because burst damage suffers when you need it most.

Well that and critD stacking to 180ish now has made the vaper way more lethal than it was before the spire

There are some guys out there that forego acc mods altogether, use critdx3 and exploiters, and push over 200.

They miss a lot sure, against moving targets not locked down by a teammate, but when they crit... oh my god.




BTW, just a little experiment

=====TEST FIFTEEN (yes i really did 11 more i didnt publish trying to prove myself wrong) =========

Romulan with 27 CritH 90 severity

1 + (.27*.9) = 1.243

Same romulan with critDx3 mods

1 + (.27*1.5) = 1.405

Same romulan add 5x locator

1 + (.35 * 1.5) = 1.525

Same romulan with 5x exploiter instead

1 + (.27*1.9) = 1.513

Same romulan with 4xE 1xL (lets see if we can beat 1.525)

1+ (.286*1.82) = 1.5205

Same romulan with 3xE 2xL (This surpasses 5x locators)

1 + (.302*1.74) = 1.52548

Same romulan with 2xE 3xL (Optimum)

1 + (.318*1.66) = 1.52788

Same romulan with 1xE 4xL (going down again)

1 + (.334*1.58) = 1.52772



This romulan with 27 critH and 90 severity using critDx3 weapons needs to use 2 exploiters and 3 locators to achieve optimal DPS. Even with Noblets favorite weapons, exploiters are still good (especially when mixed with locators to achieve the closest 5:1 ratio D/H). Locators alone actually hurt the DPS of the build.


This will probably be my last post in this particular thread because I am tired of arguing honestly.

Do not sacrifice critD for critH,especially when you are already over 20% critH. Even when using critDx3 modded weapons, you still benefit from some exploiters in your build. Each build will have its own ratio of consoles to work out, but the closest 5:1 D/H ratio overall will bring you to your optimum when dealing with the consoles.
Vice Admiral Rylana - U.S.S. DNT Omega X || Vice Admiral Lyzara - I.R.W. DNT Omicron X
Vice Admiral Kailiana - R.R.W. DNT Theta X || Vice Admiral Talina - I.R.W. DNT Tau X
Vice Admiral Victoria - U.S.S. DNT Upsilon X || Lt. General Dannika - I.K.S. DNT Sigma X
Vice Admiral Shondra - R.R.W. DNT Alpha X || Lt. General Rosanna - I.K.S. DNT Iota X
=== Vice Squad/House of Tlhap-Jen ===

Last edited by rylanadionysis; 02-25-2014 at 09:21 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 402
# 58
02-25-2014, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rylanadionysis View Post
Actually lets take this a step further.

Lets use real in game numbers, or at least rounded ones so the math is easy to follow.

Lets say a ship has 20 percent crit and 100 severity without exploiters or locators and a weapon with a base damage of 1000 per shot. Lets not look at any other factor, we just have those three numbers.

Without any console critH or critD (lets ignore the 31.9 damage bit for this as both have the same there anyway)

100000 shots
80000 shots will be for 1000 = 80 million damage
20000 shots will be for 2000 = 40 million damage

So this ship does 120,000,000 damage in those 100,000 shots fired. Okay. The baseline is 120 million.

Exploiters added

We now have a crit chance of 20 with a severity of 140

100000 shots
80000 shots will be for 1000 = 80 million damage
20000 shots will be for 2400 = 48 million damage

128 million

We have added 8 million damage, an 8 percent increase in damage output.

Swap in locators

We now have a crit chance of 28 and a severity of 100

72000 shots will be for 1000 = 72 million damage
28000 shots will be for 2000 = 56 million damage

128 million

We have added 8 million damage, an increase in damage output over base of 8 percent, BUT the exact same as the exploiter console.



As you can see, you can add either console and get the same damage increase, BUT because crit chance has more sources outside of the consoles, using them for the chance mod is not an optimal idea. The exploiters bring us very very close to the cap of 177-182, meaning we have to use fewer mods elsewhere to achieve maximum severity.



Summary - if you already have the exploiter consoles you MAY see a decrease in damage if you swap to locators, but if you have neither of them yet, add the one you need more of. In the case of a romulan you are likely much better off getting the exploiters. If you have less than say 20 percent crit now and have exhausted all of your other sources of crit chance, then the locators may be your best bet.



Thanks for playing noblet. 1.6% chance is not better than 8 severity. Its not half a mod, full mod this, mod sideways that, etc. Do you even know why? They are actually EQUAL to each other because crit severity is actually translated as 100 + severity times base. Or Base (1+x) where x is severity in notation 1.0 for 100 severity. IE, a 120 severity would be notated as Base (1+1.2) or base times 2.2.

If you have a critsev under 100, the lost critD actually negatively affects your crits, whereas the opposite is true of critsev over 200, in which you would finally be right, a 1.6 crit chance WOULD be higher than 8 severity, but we cant even get there unless we have capped sev with APA up and even then we are BARELY going over the 200 mark for only 30 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussboleyn View Post
I confess I got a little lost with managing all of the variables here, including weapons and so on ... so I used this calculator, which gave me the results of 30,2 critH / 192 CritD for my Tac Rom at the present moment ( 4 romulan superior operative at the present moment, fleet AP critD ... and so on ). I hope that tool works well
Anyway, first off, I've read other posts by rylanadionysis and you should show some respect and listen to him before throwing your own opinions on the table, since he's far from being a noob.
After all, here opinions don't matter : numbers matter.
That being said, his math makes sense and, talking with other friends, it seems that I am a little underperforming with my scimitar ( 20k-22k ) ... one of the reasons might be probably because I have all purple spire locator consoles, so that I have a lot of crit chance and not so much critical severity.
After all, think about it ... just common sense ... 1:10 ... if you use some AOE skill in PvE, like BFAW or CSV, I guess you will crit quite often so when you crit, you want your crit to be a punch as hardest as possible and not crit all of the time with flicks.
Anyway, I'll try to replace my locators with exploiters one by one and test and see what happens : I am quite systematic and I use to take a screen of every test parsing I do.
Just a notice : my eyes laid on the stats of the famous tachyokinetic converter : 0,76% critH / 7,6% critD.
" Primum vivere, deinde DPS " - STO Arthas - U.S.S. Salento
My wiener is OP, plz nerf
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 181
# 59
02-25-2014, 10:24 AM
Here. A guide. So you can all stop arguing now:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post15345081
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,472
# 60
02-25-2014, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
well, not necessarely, when crtD weapon mods are not an option (PVP). In this case, exploiter consoles are the only possible way to increase crtD.

in my opinion for PVE it is locator consoles with crtD weapon mod the optimum, no matter what values you have (asuming you reach >15% base crtH)

the hard decission lies only with the PVP setup, where ACC weapon mod is vital, and so they lose a lot of crtD.
Not really. There are lots of sources of crit severity other than crtD modifier. It already starts at 50% (or 150% for 1.5x dmg, depending on how you look at it), specialization adds bigger portion severity than chance, universal consoles that add severity should usually be fitted anyway for other reasons (like assimilated set for omega weapon amplifier), and there's ap and dhc.

Rather than to say it's easy to stack on severity, it's more like it's hard to not get a large amount of severity stacked, up to a point. Majority of players aren't romulan with full pack of superior operatives, don't have the resources to stack in every bit of crit chance to make it to that point for severity to become a limitation.

This is why the 1:10 ratio ended up right on mark for overwhelming majority of people in that fat part of the curve, despite making no sense mathematically. The person who came up with the idea of an easy 1:10 rule of thumb had the wisdom to realize this is the answer that the people who need to ask questions needed. It was never meant to sway you min-maxers. For the majority of people who are asking instead of arguing, this rule of thumb is right. For your optimal Romulan char with 5 superior operatives and every module under the sun available, it's wrong. But it was never about you.
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