Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,154
# 61
02-25-2014, 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
(...) in order to keep the mods balanced cryptic needed to reduce the amount of crtD on the consoles to make crtH competitive for builds that feature above 20% base crtH.

i was allways under the impression that this point was somewhere beyond 30% base crtH, but judging from the calculations rylanadionysis did, this point is infact much lower.
The question remains how things like wep modifiers fit in. Take the Gravimetric Torp, for instance; together with the whole set, it sports massive extra CrtD/CrtH. That torp itself exceeds the 'regular' 20% CrtH, and goes way over the projected ~125% CrtD.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,733
# 62
02-25-2014, 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noblet View Post
This is why the 1:10 ratio ended up right on mark for overwhelming majority of people in that fat part of the curve, despite making no sense mathematically. The person who came up with the idea of an easy 1:10 rule of thumb had the wisdom to realize this is the answer that the people who need to ask questions needed. It was never meant to sway you min-maxers. For the majority of people who are asking instead of arguing, this rule of thumb is right. For your optimal Romulan char with 5 superior operatives and every module under the sun available, it's wrong. But it was never about you.
In my opinion, the 1:10 rule of thumb is bad for the following reasons:

1. People are mislead into believing that 1:10 is actually the optimal ratio instead of a rule of thumb. Some people have said that Cryptic chose the [CrtH] modifier to give 2% crit chance and the [CrtD] modifier to give 20% crit severity because 1:10 is the optimal ratio. This line of reasoning is completely backwards. The 1:10 ratio arises from the values Cryptic gave to the [CrtH] and [CrtD] modifiers, not the other way around.

2. The mathematical derivation is based on a poor choice of simplifying assumptions. Even before the introduction of vulnerability locator and vulnerability exploiter consoles, there were many sources of crit besides weapon modifiers. These other contributions to crit chance and crit severity are not small. The base crit severity is 50%.

3. There is a rule of thumb that is just as simple and more widely applicable: Maximize the product of crit chance and crit severity. This rule is also based on simplifying assumptions, but less restrictive ones than the 1:10 rule. So why not tell people this rule instead?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 182
# 63
02-25-2014, 08:12 PM
The 1:10 rule came about at a time when, in STO, you could only choose, or exchange between, CritD and CritH at a ratio of 1:10. This rule still applies, where that exchange rate is valid: for instance on weapon mods. But that "rule" does not apply, for instance, in the case of Spire Tac Consoles. There the "rule" would be 1:5.

I urge you all to read this guide. It is all properly explained, at a very basic level that should be easy for anyone and everyone to follow:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post15345081

Last edited by cerealplayer; 02-25-2014 at 08:26 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,472
# 64
02-25-2014, 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerealplayer View Post
The 1:10 rule came about at a time when, in STO, you could only choose, or exchange between, CritD and CritH at a ratio of 1:10. This rule still applies, where that exchange rate is valid: for instance on weapon mods. But that "rule" does not apply, for instance, in the case of Spire Tac Consoles. There the "rule" would be 1:5.

I urge you all to read this guide. It is all properly explained, at a very basic level that should be easy for anyone and everyone to follow:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post15345081
Oh wow, that is not the rationale of 1:10 rule, lol, and exploiters are just a bad, it doesn't... make 1:5.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,733
# 65
02-25-2014, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerealplayer View Post
The 1:10 rule came about at a time when, in STO, you could only choose, or exchange between, CritD and CritH at a ratio of 1:10. This rule still applies, where that exchange rate is valid: for instance on weapon mods. But that "rule" does not apply, for instance, in the case of Spire Tac Consoles. There the "rule" would be 1:5.

I urge you all to read this guide. It is all properly explained, at a very basic level that should be easy for anyone and everyone to follow:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post15345081
But there is a base crit chance and base crit severity, as well the skills Starship Energy Weapon Specialization and Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization. So even before all this new equipment, it made little sense to talk about an optimal ratio based on weapon modifiers alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noblet View Post
Oh wow, that is not the rationale of 1:10 rule, lol, and exploiters are just a bad, it doesn't... make 1:5.
Then, what do you believe is the mathematical reason for the 1:10 rule?

Last edited by frtoaster; 02-25-2014 at 09:50 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 182
# 66
02-25-2014, 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
But there is a base crit chance and base crit severity, as well the skills Starship Energy Weapon Specialization and Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization. So even before all this new equipment, it made little sense to talk about an optimal ratio based on weapon modifiers alone.

I think you got confused somewhere. It doesn't matter where the other critH and critD comes from. What matters is that, on a weapon, you're being offered 10 CritD for every single CritH. So, when choosing a weapon, if they're both equally valuable, you should go for the CritD, because you're getting more of it --10 times more. In fact, you should only choose critH --when choosing a weapon!!-- when adding a single point of CritH increases your damage more than 10 times adding a single point of critD. How much more a single point of CritH or CritD adds to your damage, is a function of the ratio of your current values.



Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
Then, what do you believe is the mathematical reason for the 1:10 rule?
Don't feed the troll.

Last edited by cerealplayer; 02-25-2014 at 10:04 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,733
# 67
02-25-2014, 10:25 PM
Consider the following two statements:

1. When deciding between an additional [CrtH] modifier and an additional [CrtD] modifier, choose [CrtH] if your current crit severity is more than 10 times your current crit chance, and choose [CrtD] otherwise.

2. The optimal ratio of crit chance to crit severity is 1:10.

The two statements above are not equivalent. The first statement is mathematically accurate; the second is not. The second statement is not correct even when the only factors under consideration are base crit chance and base crit severity, the [CrtH] and [CrtD] weapon modifiers, and the skill Starship Energy Weapon Specialization.

Compare the following two cases:

Case A
Base: 2.5% crit chance, 50% crit severity
Starship Energy Weapon Specialization: 0 bars
Weapon modifiers: one [CrtH] modifier (+2% crit chance)
Total: 4.5% crit chance, 50% crit severity
Ratio: 4.5 / 50 = 0.09

Case B
Base: 2.5% crit chance, 50% crit severity
Starship Energy Weapon Specialization: 9 bars (+2% crit chance, +25% crit severity)
Weapon modifiers: none
Total: 4.5% crit chance, 75% crit severity
Ratio: 4.5 / 75 = 0.06

The ratio in case A is closer to 1:10 than the ratio in case B. But of course, case B is preferable, because the crit chance is the same in both cases and the crit severity is higher in case B.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,733
# 68
02-25-2014, 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerealplayer View Post
I think you got confused somewhere. It doesn't matter where the other critH and critD comes from. What matters is that, on a weapon, you're being offered 10 CritD for every single CritH. So, when choosing a weapon, if they're both equally valuable, you should go for the CritD, because you're getting more of it --10 times more. In fact, you should only choose critH --when choosing a weapon!!-- when adding a single point of CritH increases your damage more than 10 times adding a single point of critD. How much more a single point of CritH or CritD adds to your damage, is a function of the ratio of your current values.
I think this is merely a case of us misunderstanding each other due to the vagueness of English. I think you will agree with this post:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=67

Incidentally, I don't like referring to crit chance as CrtH and crit severity as CrtD. It confuses the game stats with the modifiers. For example, in the quote above, I have trouble telling when you are talking about the weapon modifiers and when you are talking about actual values of crit chance and crit severity.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 182
# 69
02-26-2014, 01:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frtoaster View Post
I think this is merely a case of us misunderstanding each other due to the vagueness of English. I think you will agree with this post:
I think we are. I agree with statement 1 (to make it clear, we're talking about weapon modifiers here). I disagree with statement 2.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,430
# 70
02-26-2014, 06:57 AM
That is much better phrased, compared to the nonsensical second statement which is oft repeated.

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
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