Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 199
# 41
03-03-2014, 05:33 AM
There's nothing wrong with being cookie cutter. I don't quite understand the aversion some people have to popular builds, going so far as to deride them and outright hate them just for being common... It's so silly.

I do know that there is less fun to be had in copying another build. Luckily I've avoided this. I experiment frequently and enjoy looking at every new doff and piece of equipment and thinking of ways to use it. As a result of doing so over the years, I ended up arriving at what are now 'cookie cutter' builds, though I did so independently. Each one for me was a personal triumph of power, efficiency, and effectiveness. It's no wonder that they ended up being the norm, but even though they are now, they still feel like *my* builds, because I found them independently without having seen them in a thread first, and therefore I have fun with them.

That's not to say I only use such builds. I have plenty of unusual and niche sets. And these sets can certainly be fun to play, and quite powerful in their own right, but when crunch time comes and I need to do my absolute best, I bring the cookie cutter ships. Because as good as a weird ship can be, it can never be the best. It's a simple reality of how a game with thousands of inter-communicating players functions... The best builds will become the most used, inevitably, inexorably, and without fail. They are popular BECAUSE they are powerful. The only way to avoid that is to lock away the components of such builds from the majority of players. But as long as most players can acquire the strongest builds, most players will use them. Thinking less of them for it is just plain stupid, and denying yourself the use of such builds out of some ridiculous hipster aversion to popular things is equally stupid. That goes doubly for those of you who like to experiment with weird builds - one of my favorite words of wisdom I took with me from my schooling days long ago is "you have to know the rules before you can break them." You shouldn't be messing around with niche stuff if you haven't even personally used and understood the mainstream setups.

If you want to be both the absolute best AND an uncommon build, you have to catch the newest 'best' build as soon as it becomes possible, before the word gets out, and you have to accept that once it does, it's going to be just as common as the previous 'best'.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,648
# 42
03-03-2014, 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I do like it when people say "X is bad because it's cookie cutter, I use Y because it's different." However they leave out the "but I'm less effective at what I'm doing because of it" side, well in PvE anyway.
It may not be the most effective build for the particular player. There may be something more effective for them to use - simply because of their playstyle or level of skill. They might literally perform better by using a build that others might find less effective...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
However here's a thought, maybe some people do just have enough grasp on the game to know when something will be more effective at what it's primary use is on certain ships/captains.
For them - in certain situations - etc, etc, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
For example you can run a spike BO/CRF ship with any captain but you know it will be more effective (at spiking high damage) with a tactical or possibly science in PvP.
See, that's something where I would say the Z is missing. It's not a case of disagreeing in the least, lol - it's just that for somebody new, they might have no idea why. They may not understand what APA/SNB give them for doing spike damage that they're not going to get out of an Eng...and I guess that's the thing that irritates me about many of the build posts and cookie cutter builds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mscowboy View Post
There's nothing wrong with being cookie cutter. I don't quite understand the aversion some people have to popular builds, going so far as to deride them and outright hate them just for being common... It's so silly.
It's usually along the lines of using a template while having no idea of why they're using the template. How many folks actually go through and do the breakdown of why each item in the build was selected? It's literally giving a person a fish without teaching them to fish. It's oft more about presentation than the build itself...though as I mentioned above...

I kind of wish haru typed out some of his builds rather than doing the podcasts. Cause even if I disagree with certain choices, he goes through the explanations of why each piece was selected - what it adds to the build. He's seeking to educate the players rather than just handing them a "Do This!" list. I just hate podcasts, cause I'm not very patient - lol...could never do audiobooks either. But that's off to the side a bit...but yeah, I definitely prefer those that try to educate rather than just drop out the here do this.

And I'd say that's one of my big two issues with cookie cutter builds.

1) Do not further understanding of game mechanics.
2) Do not consider the player flying the build.

But Hell, I got into an arg...discussion in another thread about that on another topic. I felt that they were excluding the human element for another discussion. Folks matter...

You can take the same build, put somebody else in it - put me in it...you should not expect the same results. It's not even about skill at using the build - it's just personality. I'm not a machine - I bring me to the build...and I'm pretty damn flaky.


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Endless, Hazari Destroyer
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,425
# 43
03-03-2014, 07:59 AM
I think whether cookie-cutters are a good thing for the new player or not also depends on the person to some degree. Way back when I was first trying PvP, I went with a Hilbert Guide build. That kept me going at the start while I observed others, and let me learn the defensive basics. Over time, on my own initiative, I looked around and observed more, leading to my specialising in Sci. I'm fully self-taught, after a fashion XD.

The key thing is that a player who has initiative and wants to learn can benefit quite a bit from a cookie cutter, just to keep them afloat while they grasp the basics. But for someone who doesn't have the will to learn......well, I'm not sure it would make much difference either way.
Take it easy!

Ishmael@scurry5: A Nibbling Sci
"Squeak?"
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,607
# 44
03-03-2014, 11:23 AM
Cookie cutter builds are fine. It's a good way to start, but... often in the forums, someone posts a build that isn't a cookie cutter build and SOME people slam it for not being cookie cutter. I've seen some crazy builds that are awesome and some that are horrible. I've seen engineers in pvp totally tear it up getting kill after kill and I've seen others die over and over.

My point is, most builds are player dependent, while some build are more effective, they may not be for everyone. I built a FAW scimitar and I liked it for about half of an ISE. I was killing everything but it wasn't fun for me. I would rather be 90% efficient and have fun then be 100% and be board. Right now I'm having a great time in my GW throwing, TBR pulling, warp poo spewing Odyssey.


This isn't unique to STO however. Almost every MMO I've ever played has "that guy" that says "do X or go home." It's those people that I kinda have a beef with. My human Bard and drow necro/enchantment wizard in DDO is just fine thank you.
Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 714
# 45
03-03-2014, 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rylanadionysis View Post
I could show you a Dyson Science Destroyer (the free one) that can drain someone nearly dry in about six seconds, with an engineering captain no less. (build currently slated to go onto one of my scis later, just a test build for now)


I am VERY interested in learning about this build.
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