Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1
# 151
03-06-2014, 03:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoondoggle View Post
Maybe I've been spending too much time among our Vulcan cousins, but I see no logic in a return to the old ways.
When a methodology has been revealed as faulty, it should be abandoned. Lies and treachery, schemes in the shadows; these are the behaviours that brought our race to its knees. Shinzon and Tal'Aura shattered the empire, left it weak and disunited when our people most needed a strong leadership. Hobus. Our own leaders made a subspace bomb out of a star and turned it on us. Did this make us strong? We have been refugees for years because of the old ways. Now that we are building a new home, why would we return to the ideals that destroyed our old home?
The Tal Shiar ally themselves with the Iconians in the hopes of picking at the crumbs that fall from the master's table - they sell the Romulan people as slaves to these masters, or pervert their minds... make them do terrible things... twist them up so tight that worlds blur together and beloved allies become hated foes and you.......
Whatever they once were, the Tal Shiar are slaves to a foreign power, and they intend to see us all enslaved with them. I refuse to be a slave to anyone.

To continue with the old ways, to embrace the Tal Shiar, logically, is inconceivable, emotionally, is abhorrent. If we walk that path, we walk to our doom.

Basically, I agree with this as well. There are some elements of the old ways that should be preserved, but we (speaking as my Romulan toon) need to ditch the Tal Shiar and the skulking underhanded tactics of the past that typically failed and even led to the destruction of the homeworld. I support the Republic. I'm not opposed to a monarchy though. A constitutional monarchy with a senate based on either New Romulus or Rator would be best.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 301
# 152
03-07-2014, 09:50 AM
Well as for me, i'm firmly on the side of the Republic and the Tal'Diann

D'tan and the Republic Senate may not be perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than the Tal Shiar, Sela, and the remnants of the RSE.

I can understand the power trip behind playing the villain...but the problem with being a Tal Shiar 'villain' in this game...is they DON'T have the power, they're fractured and scattered.

Why anyone would want to play a desperate, near powerless faction, known for infighting, promotion through assassination, and general toadyism is beyond me.

That's why i'm happy being an intelligence operative with a near limitless budget...but with the morals to not misuse it for nefarious purposes
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,404
# 153
03-07-2014, 07:38 PM
I don't think anyone really wants to play the powerless and moronic Tal Shiar as they are now written. It would be fair to say there's a bit of bitterness on how Cryptic decided to treat the old RSE-style Romulans though.

Cryptic has continuously rewritten the RSE to be more and more cartoonishly evil and stupid, while promoting the Republic as it now is.

Look at what the Romulan situation as Cryptic has developed it:

Prior to New Romulus: No Republic, Obisek's rebels/terrorists are the only resistance movement, and are much darker than current Republic-using thalaron weapons vs civilians, raiding federation space, etc. Tal Shiar is only part of the Romulan armed forces, Sela and Hakeev are not in cahoots, and never share the same screen, much less even have a conversation together. What happens after Sela's abduction is not discussed.

New Romulus: Still no Republic. D'Tan's group are basically a bunch of separatists who are taking advantage of Sela's disappearance to secede. has support of at least some Romulan military elements and D'Tan is courted by the Tal Shiar as a possible replacement for Sela. Still use IRW prefix and RSE uniforms. Obisek gives his support to D'Tan.

Romulan Republic is a huge freedom fighter movement that has existed well before the disappearance of Sela and death of Hakeev. Non Tal Shiar armed forces of the RSE are retconned out, and and Hakeev and Sela are pretty much on the same page right now, with him being her 'right hand man' and his insane iconian/elachii plot setting the agenda for the entire RSE. The RR pretty much supplants the RSE as being 'the' Romulan faction.

Basically the Republic supplanted the RSE pretty much entirely by authorial fiat. The road was completely open for Cryptic to write a Romulan faction if the had wanted to. The only real reference to the Romulans of note post-Sela was 'The Return' which didn't really touch on the subject of the state of the Empire. (but showed that they still had the funds and organization to pursue development of Borg technology) The faction that emerged from the loss of Sela by no means had to be the Republic-and I would expect it to have required far less in the way of retcons and storyline changes.

That's the Romulan faction my loyalty lies with-not the stupid, cartoonish caricature of the Tal Shiar, and not this bizarre Republic that has more in common with the Maquis and the Bajorans than the Romulans-but with the Romulan Star Empire that Cryptic retconned and killed off starting with New Romulus and ending with legacy of Romulus.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,301
# 154
03-07-2014, 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
I don't think anyone really wants to play the powerless and moronic Tal Shiar as they are now written. It would be fair to say there's a bit of bitterness on how Cryptic decided to treat the old RSE-style Romulans though.

Cryptic has continuously rewritten the RSE to be more and more cartoonishly evil and stupid, while promoting the Republic as it now is.

Look at what the Romulan situation as Cryptic has developed it:

Prior to New Romulus: No Republic, Obisek's rebels/terrorists are the only resistance movement, and are much darker than current Republic-using thalaron weapons vs civilians, raiding federation space, etc. Tal Shiar is only part of the Romulan armed forces, Sela and Hakeev are not in cahoots, and never share the same screen, much less even have a conversation together. What happens after Sela's abduction is not discussed.

New Romulus: Still no Republic. D'Tan's group are basically a bunch of separatists who are taking advantage of Sela's disappearance to secede. has support of at least some Romulan military elements and D'Tan is courted by the Tal Shiar as a possible replacement for Sela. Still use IRW prefix and RSE uniforms. Obisek gives his support to D'Tan.

Romulan Republic is a huge freedom fighter movement that has existed well before the disappearance of Sela and death of Hakeev. Non Tal Shiar armed forces of the RSE are retconned out, and and Hakeev and Sela are pretty much on the same page right now, with him being her 'right hand man' and his insane iconian/elachii plot setting the agenda for the entire RSE. The RR pretty much supplants the RSE as being 'the' Romulan faction.

Basically the Republic supplanted the RSE pretty much entirely by authorial fiat. The road was completely open for Cryptic to write a Romulan faction if the had wanted to. The only real reference to the Romulans of note post-Sela was 'The Return' which didn't really touch on the subject of the state of the Empire. (but showed that they still had the funds and organization to pursue development of Borg technology) The faction that emerged from the loss of Sela by no means had to be the Republic-and I would expect it to have required far less in the way of retcons and storyline changes.

That's the Romulan faction my loyalty lies with-not the stupid, cartoonish caricature of the Tal Shiar, and not this bizarre Republic that has more in common with the Maquis and the Bajorans than the Romulans-but with the Romulan Star Empire that Cryptic retconned and killed off starting with New Romulus and ending with legacy of Romulus.
First of all, the "old RSE-style Romulans" were in TOS. Something changed between TOS and TNG, and that was the formation of the Tal'Shiar.

Second, the Tal'Shiar is not and never was a part of the Romulan armed forces; they are explicitly stated by numerous sources to be a civilian intelligence agency and secret police; they were an agency of the Romulan Star Empire's government, never affiliated with the Romulan Star Navy, which opposed them frequently.

Third, Sela and Hakeev share the screen in more than one mission, or did you not do the "Mind Games" mission (she seems pretty cozy with Hakeev in this) or the "Cutting the Cord" mission (in which she finally -- finally -- cuts ties with Hakeev, even having a conversation with him to inform him of this decision, but just a bit too late for it to matter), or did you just skip the cut scenes in those missions? What happens after Sela's "abduction" happens after Hakeev is dead/captured (depending on the player's action), and is therefore irrelevant to her relationship with Hakeev.

Fourth, denying that the Republic is a Republic doesn't make it not a Republic; D'Tan was elected and there is a Senate. Even the STO Wiki states that the government of the Republic is "democratic."

Fifth, the RSE (and specifically, the Tal'Shiar) was already experimenting with, and making use of, Borg tech before Sela was carried away by the Iconians (which, by the way, ought to be mentioned in every discussion in which the Republic is condemned for trying to make use of Iconian tech).

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,404
# 155
03-07-2014, 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
First of all, the "old RSE-style Romulans" were in TOS. Something changed between TOS and TNG, and that was the formation of the Tal'Shiar.

Second, the Tal'Shiar is not and never was a part of the Romulan armed forces; they are explicitly stated by numerous sources to be a civilian intelligence agency and secret police; they were an agency of the Romulan Star Empire's government, never affiliated with the Romulan Star Navy, which opposed them frequently.

Third, Sela and Hakeev share the screen in more than one mission, or did you not do the "Mind Games" mission (she seems pretty cozy with Hakeev in this) or the "Cutting the Cord" mission (in which she finally -- finally -- cuts ties with Hakeev, even having a conversation with him to inform him of this decision, but just a bit too late for it to matter), or did you just skip the cut scenes in those missions? What happens after Sela's "abduction" happens after Hakeev is dead/captured (depending on the player's action), and is therefore irrelevant to her relationship with Hakeev.

Fourth, denying that the Republic is a Republic doesn't make it not a Republic; D'Tan was elected and there is a Senate. Even the STO Wiki states that the government of the Republic is "democratic."

Fifth, the RSE (and specifically, the Tal'Shiar) was already experimenting with, and making use of, Borg tech before Sela was carried away by the Iconians (which, by the way, ought to be mentioned in every discussion in which the Republic is condemned for trying to make use of Iconian tech).
Enterprise has you beat there. The Romulans there were TNG-style as well. They had the option with going with cornball pink/purple pajamas clad ROman knockoffs and declined. Can only imagine why.

As much as you like to bring up book evidence of the Tal Shiar being relatively new, newer material supersedes and retcons the Tal Shiar to predating the Federation.

The Tal Shiar possesses its own ships and infantry. They are part of the armed forced of the RSE even if they operate outside the structure of the Navy. Her backstory that Cryptic wrote for her indicates that she hates the Tal Shiar, which made it all the more bizarre when LOR came around and Hakeev was suddenly her right hand and she allowed the non-tal Shar military to be disbanded.

I was talking about pre-legacy of Romulus, where Hakeev and Sela never talk to each other. Mind games is LOR material, and the old Cutting the Cord Mission had her warping in in response to the KDF/FED player invading a Romulan planet.

I didn't deny that the Republic was a Republic, only pointed out that it was never called the Republic prior to LoR, and in fact, did not exist at all prior to New Romulus.

So? I never said they weren't experimenting with Borg tech prior...there's a episode or two that deal with it prior to 'The Return' even before LOR...though I always found the Federation's position on the Rommies having borg tech to be more than a bit hypocritical considering Voyager, the Delta flyer, and Omega Force.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,301
# 156
03-07-2014, 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Enterprise has you beat there. The Romulans there were TNG-style as well. They had the option with going with cornball pink/purple pajamas clad ROman knockoffs and declined. Can only imagine why.

As much as you like to bring up book evidence of the Tal Shiar being relatively new, newer material supersedes and retcons the Tal Shiar to predating the Federation.

The Tal Shiar possesses its own ships and infantry. They are part of the armed forced of the RSE even if they operate outside the structure of the Navy. Her backstory that Cryptic wrote for her indicates that she hates the Tal Shiar, which made it all the more bizarre when LOR came around and Hakeev was suddenly her right hand and she allowed the non-tal Shar military to be disbanded.

I was talking about pre-legacy of Romulus, where Hakeev and Sela never talk to each other. Mind games is LOR material, and the old Cutting the Cord Mission had her warping in in response to the KDF/FED player invading a Romulan planet.

I didn't deny that the Republic was a Republic, only pointed out that it was never called the Republic prior to LoR, and in fact, did not exist at all prior to New Romulus.

So? I never said they weren't experimenting with Borg tech prior...there's a episode or two that deal with it prior to 'The Return' even before LOR...though I always found the Federation's position on the Rommies having borg tech to be more than a bit hypocritical considering Voyager, the Delta flyer, and Omega Force.
I don't know where you got this pink/purple pajama thing, but that's not what the TOS Romulans wore.

The Romulans in TOS were aggressive and tricky, sure; that's not a matter of dispute. What is the matter disputed is the fascist bully-boy nature which characterized most Romulans in TNG and all the later series (although ENT doesn't really do that).

I have yet to see any date for the formation of the Tal'Shiar other than the one I have stated repeatedly. I've stated the source explicitly. You have vaguely referred to "newer material" without any specifics. State the source(s) or give it a rest.

The Tal'Shiar has its own fleet, yes. It is still not a military organization, and is explicitly stated to be civilian and not military.

I don't recall having encountered Hakeev before LoR (although I may have forgotten, since my Vulcan and Orion were already at the level cap for quite some time prior to the release of LoR). Furthermore, he's not mentioned anywhere in the Path to 2409.

When the player first encounters Temer in the Virinat system (which, oh my, is prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus), he identifies himself as a part of "the Romulan Republic." Several additional references to "the Romulan Republic" are made prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus.

And attacks by supporters of the Empire against the Republic for experimenting with Iconian tech while the RSE experimented with Borg tech are not equally hypocritical?

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,404
# 157
03-07-2014, 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
I don't know where you got this pink/purple pajama thing, but that's not what the TOS Romulans wore.

The Romulans in TOS were aggressive and tricky, sure; that's not a matter of dispute. What is the matter disputed is the fascist bully-boy nature which characterized most Romulans in TNG and all the later series (although ENT doesn't really do that).

I have yet to see any date for the formation of the Tal'Shiar other than the one I have stated repeatedly. I've stated the source explicitly. You have vaguely referred to "newer material" without any specifics. State the source(s) or give it a rest.

The Tal'Shiar has its own fleet, yes. It is still not a military organization, and is explicitly stated to be civilian and not military.

I don't recall having encountered Hakeev before LoR (although I may have forgotten, since my Vulcan and Orion were already at the level cap for quite some time prior to the release of LoR). Furthermore, he's not mentioned anywhere in the Path to 2409.

When the player first encounters Temer in the Virinat system (which, oh my, is prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus), he identifies himself as a part of "the Romulan Republic." Several additional references to "the Romulan Republic" are made prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus.

And attacks by supporters of the Empire against the Republic for experimenting with Iconian tech while the RSE experimented with Borg tech are not equally hypocritical?
Pink pajamas is a reference to the TOS Romulan Uniforms, which incorporate pink pajama bottoms to my eyes. Rather silly looking IMO.

Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.

They use military ranks such as 'Major' they use the same ships as the normal military, almost identical uniforms (TNG) and later the same uniforms as the military (DS9). They had enough D'deridex classes to field entire fleets of Tal Shiar ships, They were effectively the second branch of the Romulan military. That counts as 'armed forces' in my book.

Hakeev existed prior to Legacy of Romulus. You encountered him in 'Mine Enemy' the arena episode, and 'Cutting the Cord' I'm not sure if he was even the leader of the Tal Shiar prior to LoR, but he certainly wasn't working with Sela. No he isn't mentioned at all in Path to 2409, in fact-if anything path to 2409 hints that Rehaek is the puppet master of the Tal Shiar, orchestrating Sela's exile when she started digging in places the Tal Shiar didn't want her to.

The Romulan republic wasn't mentioned before Legacy of Romulus at all. The references were added afterwards, along with more obvious changes-some with New Romulus, and some with Legacy of Romulus. Surely you noticed that New Romulus ships used to fly with the I.R.W. Prefix and their personnel used to have RSE uniforms? Some of the NPCs still do, like the lieutenant in the warehouse quest. Presumably Cryptic forgot to change her rank and uniform when LOR came about. It's rather interesting comparing D'Tan's faction pre-LOR to post-LOR. The Tal Shiar general's offer to make D'Tan the Leader of the Star Empire makes a lot less sense now that his forces were the ones that overthrew the RSE and Tal Shiar, but it made more sense when D'Tan was the leader of one of the factions to emerge in the in-fighting following Sela's departure.

Have I attacked the Republic for using Iconian tech in the past? Perhaps in the case of the gateway it may seem questionable, given they knew the Dewans wiped themselves out screwing around with that same gate. The Dyson sphere or the utilization of solanae technology though? handled much better.
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Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,301
# 158
03-08-2014, 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Pink pajamas is a reference to the TOS Romulan Uniforms, which incorporate pink pajama bottoms to my eyes. Rather silly looking IMO.

Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.

They use military ranks such as 'Major' they use the same ships as the normal military, almost identical uniforms (TNG) and later the same uniforms as the military (DS9). They had enough D'deridex classes to field entire fleets of Tal Shiar ships, They were effectively the second branch of the Romulan military. That counts as 'armed forces' in my book.

Hakeev existed prior to Legacy of Romulus. You encountered him in 'Mine Enemy' the arena episode, and 'Cutting the Cord' I'm not sure if he was even the leader of the Tal Shiar prior to LoR, but he certainly wasn't working with Sela. No he isn't mentioned at all in Path to 2409, in fact-if anything path to 2409 hints that Rehaek is the puppet master of the Tal Shiar, orchestrating Sela's exile when she started digging in places the Tal Shiar didn't want her to.

The Romulan republic wasn't mentioned before Legacy of Romulus at all. The references were added afterwards, along with more obvious changes-some with New Romulus, and some with Legacy of Romulus. Surely you noticed that New Romulus ships used to fly with the I.R.W. Prefix and their personnel used to have RSE uniforms? Some of the NPCs still do, like the lieutenant in the warehouse quest. Presumably Cryptic forgot to change her rank and uniform when LOR came about. It's rather interesting comparing D'Tan's faction pre-LOR to post-LOR. The Tal Shiar general's offer to make D'Tan the Leader of the Star Empire makes a lot less sense now that his forces were the ones that overthrew the RSE and Tal Shiar, but it made more sense when D'Tan was the leader of one of the factions to emerge in the in-fighting following Sela's departure.

Have I attacked the Republic for using Iconian tech in the past? Perhaps in the case of the gateway it may seem questionable, given they knew the Dewans wiped themselves out screwing around with that same gate. The Dyson sphere or the utilization of solanae technology though? handled much better.
They look like culottes/kulats to me, rather than pyjama pants:
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/6...s-culottes.jpg
and are arguably more red than pink (I believe the actual color would be called "Black Rose"); while the others shown in TOS are blue (not purple).

Ah, yes, that novel. It does seem to contradict more than The Art of the Impossible (and Vulcan's Heart, for that matter -- which I still haven't read, but I did find a copy on Thursday, so it's only a matter of time) concerning the matter of the founding of the Tal'Shiar; for example, and in particular, the relationship of the Haakona-Romulus conflicts to the Battle of Cheron. Memory Beta has an interesting policy in connection with the contradictory dates for the founding of the Tal'Shir, recommending that any civilian "Romulan Intelligence" agency prior to the time of Narviat be referred to, not as "Tal Shiar," but as "Romulan Intelligence." While Memory Beta of course does not have the same weight as canon, I like their policy, which seems to imply that they (probably unofficially) side with the later date and view the references to Romulan Intelligence as "Tal Shiar" in Kobayashi Maru to be anachronistic.

The police also have ranks like "Sergeant," "Lieutenant," "Captain," etc. That does not make the police a branch of the military. Some of them even have military weapons (S.W.A.T. teams, for example, although more and more regular police forces have been obtaining military equipment lately), but again, that does not make the police a military branch. Some police forces have fleets of helicopters (which are used by the military); some even have tanks and armored personnel carriers, but again, they are not a branch of the military. That the Tal'Shiar has its own fleet is well-known, but since multiple sources explicitly state that they are civilian and not military, I think that point doesn't need me to counter it.

I still don't recall having encountered Hakeev prior to LoR; I'll take your word for his having been around prior. Rehaek was explicitly named as "the leader of the Tal Shiar" in the Path to 2409 (under the year 2385), but he was apparently dead (again, according to the Path to 2409, under the year 2386) prior to Sela being arrested and sentenced to death by the Tal'Shiar, which sentence was commuted to exile at Donatra's intervention (her arrest and sentence were for the alleged murder of Rehaek). (Whether or not Rehaek was actually killed in the explosion at his home is never answered with certainty in the Path to 2409, but he did not figure into any subsequent events, and he is never mentioned again after the year 2386.)

I do not recall having seen any New Romulus personnel wearing RSE uniforms (I can check the warehouse mission for the one to whom you refer, but that would obviously not mean that the NPC in question is part of the RSE, nor would the wearing of identical uniforms by the New Romulus personnel prior to LoR). What New Romulus ships were ever seen prior to LoR? There never were any in orbit around New Romulus (indeed, calls for NPC New Romulus vessels to be added to the New Romulus system have been seen since LoR came out, because there are still no New Romulus ships in the system). And prior to LoR, there was still a Romulan Star Empire in existence which consisted of more than the Tal'Shiar, with its capitol on Rator-III, which, according to the Path to 2409, began to be called "Nova Roma" (in 2394), and later (2408) "Mol'Rihan."

For that matter, the Tal'Shiar was messing around with Iconian tech (including a gate) prior to the discovery of the gate on New Romulus, and agents of the Republic were on hand to see Taris make use of an Iconian gate, which occurred prior to the attempt by the Republic to use the gate found on New Romulus. Having seen Romulans using an Iconian gate without any trouble (remember, the facility was not destroyed by the gateway itself, but by a self-destruct sequence initiated by Taris prior to her escape through the gateway), agents of the Republic obviously would not have thought the Republic's attempt was crazy or even "questionable." If I recall correctly, the gate on New Romulus had been rigged to cause destruction prior to the Republic's first attempt to use it, so referring to this event in order to condemn D'Tan is more than a little disingenuous.

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 516
# 159
03-08-2014, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
I don't think anyone really wants to play the powerless and moronic Tal Shiar as they are now written. It would be fair to say there's a bit of bitterness on how Cryptic decided to treat the old RSE-style Romulans though.

Cryptic has continuously rewritten the RSE to be more and more cartoonishly evil and stupid, while promoting the Republic as it now is.

Look at what the Romulan situation as Cryptic has developed it:

Prior to New Romulus: No Republic, Obisek's rebels/terrorists are the only resistance movement, and are much darker than current Republic-using thalaron weapons vs civilians, raiding federation space, etc. Tal Shiar is only part of the Romulan armed forces, Sela and Hakeev are not in cahoots, and never share the same screen, much less even have a conversation together. What happens after Sela's abduction is not discussed.

New Romulus: Still no Republic. D'Tan's group are basically a bunch of separatists who are taking advantage of Sela's disappearance to secede. has support of at least some Romulan military elements and D'Tan is courted by the Tal Shiar as a possible replacement for Sela. Still use IRW prefix and RSE uniforms. Obisek gives his support to D'Tan.

Romulan Republic is a huge freedom fighter movement that has existed well before the disappearance of Sela and death of Hakeev. Non Tal Shiar armed forces of the RSE are retconned out, and and Hakeev and Sela are pretty much on the same page right now, with him being her 'right hand man' and his insane iconian/elachii plot setting the agenda for the entire RSE. The RR pretty much supplants the RSE as being 'the' Romulan faction.

Basically the Republic supplanted the RSE pretty much entirely by authorial fiat. The road was completely open for Cryptic to write a Romulan faction if the had wanted to. The only real reference to the Romulans of note post-Sela was 'The Return' which didn't really touch on the subject of the state of the Empire. (but showed that they still had the funds and organization to pursue development of Borg technology) The faction that emerged from the loss of Sela by no means had to be the Republic-and I would expect it to have required far less in the way of retcons and storyline changes.

That's the Romulan faction my loyalty lies with-not the stupid, cartoonish caricature of the Tal Shiar, and not this bizarre Republic that has more in common with the Maquis and the Bajorans than the Romulans-but with the Romulan Star Empire that Cryptic retconned and killed off starting with New Romulus and ending with legacy of Romulus.
catoblepasbeta is right and explained everything well. Doubt any "imperial" character stands for Cryptic storyline Tal Shiar. According to early New Romulus season materials Cryptic intended to make imperial faction, which turned after at what we have now.
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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,404
# 160
03-08-2014, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
They look like culottes/kulats to me, rather than pyjama pants:
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/6...s-culottes.jpg
and are arguably more red than pink (I believe the actual color would be called "Black Rose"); while the others shown in TOS are blue (not purple).

Ah, yes, that novel. It does seem to contradict more than The Art of the Impossible (and Vulcan's Heart, for that matter -- which I still haven't read, but I did find a copy on Thursday, so it's only a matter of time) concerning the matter of the founding of the Tal'Shiar; for example, and in particular, the relationship of the Haakona-Romulus conflicts to the Battle of Cheron. Memory Beta has an interesting policy in connection with the contradictory dates for the founding of the Tal'Shir, recommending that any civilian "Romulan Intelligence" agency prior to the time of Narviat be referred to, not as "Tal Shiar," but as "Romulan Intelligence." While Memory Beta of course does not have the same weight as canon, I like their policy, which seems to imply that they (probably unofficially) side with the later date and view the references to Romulan Intelligence as "Tal Shiar" in Kobayashi Maru to be anachronistic.

The police also have ranks like "Sergeant," "Lieutenant," "Captain," etc. That does not make the police a branch of the military. Some of them even have military weapons (S.W.A.T. teams, for example, although more and more regular police forces have been obtaining military equipment lately), but again, that does not make the police a military branch. Some police forces have fleets of helicopters (which are used by the military); some even have tanks and armored personnel carriers, but again, they are not a branch of the military. That the Tal'Shiar has its own fleet is well-known, but since multiple sources explicitly state that they are civilian and not military, I think that point doesn't need me to counter it.

I still don't recall having encountered Hakeev prior to LoR; I'll take your word for his having been around prior. Rehaek was explicitly named as "the leader of the Tal Shiar" in the Path to 2409 (under the year 2385), but he was apparently dead (again, according to the Path to 2409, under the year 2386) prior to Sela being arrested and sentenced to death by the Tal'Shiar, which sentence was commuted to exile at Donatra's intervention (her arrest and sentence were for the alleged murder of Rehaek). (Whether or not Rehaek was actually killed in the explosion at his home is never answered with certainty in the Path to 2409, but he did not figure into any subsequent events, and he is never mentioned again after the year 2386.)

I do not recall having seen any New Romulus personnel wearing RSE uniforms (I can check the warehouse mission for the one to whom you refer, but that would obviously not mean that the NPC in question is part of the RSE, nor would the wearing of identical uniforms by the New Romulus personnel prior to LoR). What New Romulus ships were ever seen prior to LoR? There never were any in orbit around New Romulus (indeed, calls for NPC New Romulus vessels to be added to the New Romulus system have been seen since LoR came out, because there are still no New Romulus ships in the system). And prior to LoR, there was still a Romulan Star Empire in existence which consisted of more than the Tal'Shiar, with its capitol on Rator-III, which, according to the Path to 2409, began to be called "Nova Roma" (in 2394), and later (2408) "Mol'Rihan."

For that matter, the Tal'Shiar was messing around with Iconian tech (including a gate) prior to the discovery of the gate on New Romulus, and agents of the Republic were on hand to see Taris make use of an Iconian gate, which occurred prior to the attempt by the Republic to use the gate found on New Romulus. Having seen Romulans using an Iconian gate without any trouble (remember, the facility was not destroyed by the gateway itself, but by a self-destruct sequence initiated by Taris prior to her escape through the gateway), agents of the Republic obviously would not have thought the Republic's attempt was crazy or even "questionable." If I recall correctly, the gate on New Romulus had been rigged to cause destruction prior to the Republic's first attempt to use it, so referring to this event in order to condemn D'Tan is more than a little disingenuous.
To each their own. I can't stand the TOS uniforms, but like the TNG and DS9 uniforms for the Romulans.

Yes, it does certainly seem to be anachronistic and a retcon, which is why I prefer to base my views on the Romulans first and foremost on their showings in the movies and TV series.

I think it's just a matter of semantics. The only thing 'civilian' about the Tal Shiar is their leadership, which is composed of appointed government officials. They would correctly be classified as 'paramilitary', but the distinction remains nominal in the case of the Tal Shiar IMO.

Yes, the sidelining of non-Tal Shiar elements of the RSE by LoR is one of the things I dislike about LoR, because its one of those things that IMO contributed to the RSE becoming a walking caricature, a strawman. Heck, even with New Romulus they didn't take it that far-their actions against New Romulus seem to consist mostly of ground-based sabotage operations, and only after D'Tan rebukes the Tal Shiar offer. A far cry from the psychotic genocidal campaigns of LOR.

Aside from the warehouse lady, the pve mission where you rescue Romulan ships from Tholians-the ship that gives you your instructions for the mission used to have a IRW prefix and the captain used to have a RSE uniform. They also removed the RSE uniforms on refugees in the 'Mine enemy' mission. There might have been other npcs on New Romulus with RSE uniforms, but the specifics escape me. All of this made a bit more sense IMO when one considers that When New Romulus came out, prior to LoR, D'Tan's faction was more of an opportunistic secession brought on by the civil war following Sela's disappearance rather than an underground rebellion.

Eh, I give Hakeev and Taris a pass when it comes to using the gate technology, considering they got the technology from the Iconians themselves, so it wouldn't be too unreasonable to presume the Iconians taught them how to operate/build the gates properly. I think their stupidity stems from working with the Iconians in the first place, IMO. The symptoms of the gate problems the Romulans encountered seem pretty close to what the Dewans describe, so I have considered them to be of similar cause. Not the dumbest thing we have seen the KDF/Fed/RR do, but certainly up there. I wouldn't be opposed to Cryptic going in there and changing some dialogue or something to make the Romulans look a bit less silly.
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