Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 24
# 161
03-08-2014, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.
Would you accept that it's possible for an organisation to exist without being an official government-backed organisation?
I haven't read Kobayashi Maru, so I don't know if it's made explicit that they're a part of the RSE's power structure, or if their status is mentioned at all, but I do know that similar organisations in earth's history have existed before they became a part of the state. It seems, to me, that it's entirely possible that the later date of formation could simply be the date of incorporation into the government, and that the Tal Shiar existed as an independent organisation for far longer before coming to power.
I'm not a Romulan doctor, but I play one on STO.

Last edited by spoondoggle; 03-08-2014 at 09:48 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,183
# 162
03-08-2014, 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoondoggle View Post
Would you accept that it's possible for an organisation to exist without being an official government-backed organisation?
I haven't read Kobayashi Maru, so I don't know if it's made explicit that they're a part of the RSE's power structure, or if their status is mentioned at all, but I do know that similar organisations in earth's history have existed before they became a part of the state. It seems, to me, that it's entirely possible that the later date of formation could simply be the date of incorporation into the government, and that the Tal Shiar existed as an independent organisation for far longer before coming to power.
I can't speak for catoblepas, but I think it likely that there was a Romulan Intelligence outside the military prior to 2344, but the novels Vulcan's Heart and The Art of the Impossible both state that Praetor Devoras Narviat formed the Tal'Shiar in 2344, and named it after Emperor Shiarkiek (who was the uncle of Di'on Charvon / Liviana Charvanek, the wife of Narviat). The bit about the name would necessitate that no Romulan Intelligence before the time of Shiarkiek could have been named "Tal'Shiar," and the bit about Narviat having founded the group would necessitate that any civilian Romulan Intelligence prior to Narviat founding the Tal'Shiar would have been a different organization.

Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) ~(‾.▿.‾)~ Tal'Diann (Romulan Military Intelligence)
The saying "There are no women on the internet" is sexist nonsense. We do exist, and we also play MMOs. Do not misgender me; I am female.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,176
# 163
03-08-2014, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
I can't speak for catoblepas, but I think it likely that there was a Romulan Intelligence outside the military prior to 2344, but the novels Vulcan's Heart and The Art of the Impossible both state that Praetor Devoras Narviat formed the Tal'Shiar in 2344, and named it after Emperor Shiarkiek (who was the uncle of Di'on Charvon / Liviana Charvanek, the wife of Narviat). The bit about the name would necessitate that no Romulan Intelligence before the time of Shiarkiek could have been named "Tal'Shiar," and the bit about Narviat having founded the group would necessitate that any civilian Romulan Intelligence prior to Narviat founding the Tal'Shiar would have been a different organization.
Oh, I think it's more than likely, even after 2344. Heck, even in TNG, they mentioned 'Romulan Intelligence' more than 'Tal Shiar' (mentioned in only one episode) And the 'Romulan Intelligence' Uniforms were indistinguishable from the normal military ones, (at least in TNG) with the only Tal Shiar uniform seen on screen being noticeably different.

I think it would be a reasonable assumption going by the shows that the Romulan military and/or the civilian government had their own intelligence agency/agencies outside of the Tal Shiar-it would further explain the rivalries between the Military and Tal Shiar, I think.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,183
# 164
03-08-2014, 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Oh, I think it's more than likely, even after 2344. Heck, even in TNG, they mentioned 'Romulan Intelligence' more than 'Tal Shiar' (mentioned in only one episode) And the 'Romulan Intelligence' Uniforms were indistinguishable from the normal military ones, (at least in TNG) with the only Tal Shiar uniform seen on screen being noticeably different.

I think it would be a reasonable assumption going by the shows that the Romulan military and/or the civilian government had their own intelligence agency/agencies outside of the Tal Shiar-it would further explain the rivalries between the Military and Tal Shiar, I think.
Certainly there is a separate Military Intelligence in non-canonical sources: the Tal'Diann, which is emphatically stated to have an adversarial relationship with the Tal'Shiar.

I would probably have called my fleet "Romulan Military Intelligence" if I had not known about the Tal'Diann, but I did, and the fact that the Tal'Diann is said to be adversarial to the Tal'Shiar just made the choice of name that much sweeter.

Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) ~(‾.▿.‾)~ Tal'Diann (Romulan Military Intelligence)
The saying "There are no women on the internet" is sexist nonsense. We do exist, and we also play MMOs. Do not misgender me; I am female.
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 24
# 165
03-08-2014, 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
I think it likely that there was a Romulan Intelligence outside the military prior to 2344, but the novels Vulcan's Heart and The Art of the Impossible both state that Praetor Devoras Narviat formed the Tal'Shiar in 2344, and named it after Emperor Shiarkiek (who was the uncle of Di'on Charvon / Liviana Charvanek, the wife of Narviat). The bit about the name would necessitate that no Romulan Intelligence before the time of Shiarkiek could have been named "Tal'Shiar," and the bit about Narviat having founded the group would necessitate that any civilian Romulan Intelligence prior to Narviat founding the Tal'Shiar would have been a different organization.
True, in Vulcan's Heart, it's stated that the Tal Shiar are a replacement for the old, "corrupt and cruel" intelligence forces, so there definitely was a government-backed intelligence force before then, but I was thinking of the Tal Shiar themselves predating that event, just without government ties. I don't think the name is all that important (unless they're referred to as the Tal Shiar in Kobyashi Maru, in which case... bwuh? Umm... time travel!) because it's easy enough to give an organisation a new name. As for Narviat founding them... well, it's possible that this is obfuscation ("I just founded them today, so don't worry that they're secretly that paramilitary group that's been terrorising Romulan citizens for centuries, just given a fresh coat of legitimacy, they're brand new!") but, whether that's true or not, their existing before 2344 doesn't necessarily mean they were a tool of the Romulan government before that date. As I vaguely hinted at in my previous post, the SA (which had military titles for its members, despite not being a part of the German military) existed for over a decade before the Nazi rise to power. So... yeah my point is that they could've existed for a long time, before coming to their ultimate position along with a change of political power or opinion in the government.
I'm not a Romulan doctor, but I play one on STO.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,176
# 166
03-08-2014, 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
Certainly there is a separate Military Intelligence in non-canonical sources: the Tal'Diann, which is emphatically stated to have an adversarial relationship with the Tal'Shiar.

I would probably have called my fleet "Romulan Military Intelligence" if I had not known about the Tal'Diann, but I did, and the fact that the Tal'Diann is said to be adversarial to the Tal'Shiar just made the choice of name that much sweeter.
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself-which would makes sense considering she was a member of Romulan Intelligence (or Tal'Diann as you call it) in TNG, and is established in her backstory in STO as being adversarial to the Tal Shiar. Missions would ideally have dialogue options to set the tone of your Captain-Tomalak-esque or D'tan-esque. Oh, what could have been.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,183
# 167
03-08-2014, 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself-which would makes sense considering she was a member of Romulan Intelligence (or Tal'Diann as you call it) in TNG, and is established in her backstory in STO as being adversarial to the Tal Shiar. Missions would ideally have dialogue options to set the tone of your Captain-Tomalak-esque or D'tan-esque. Oh, what could have been.
I think Sela was part of the Tal'Shiar; her character simply fits that view, and doesn't fit the Tal'Diann (even before my re-formation of the Tal'Diann). She was established in the backstory (Path to 2409) as adversarial to the Tal'Shiar under Rehaek, but only after Rehaek started persecuting nobles whom she favored. I think it's safe to say her actual opposition was to Rehaek and those who supported him in the Tal'Shiar, and not the Tal'Shiar itself. The Path to 2409 also says she had experience in Intelligence (it does not say "Military Intelligence").

Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) ~(‾.▿.‾)~ Tal'Diann (Romulan Military Intelligence)
The saying "There are no women on the internet" is sexist nonsense. We do exist, and we also play MMOs. Do not misgender me; I am female.
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 24
# 168
03-08-2014, 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself
I think it would be better if the option was there, and that might've been a better way to determine whether you had ties to the Federation or Klingons, but I'm glad that we're able to have Republic characters. Partly because I like the idea of the Romulan people having some control over their lives, but mostly because my Romulan is the only character I have who doesn't see herself as a military officer, even if she does, technically, have a military rank and ties to the Romulan Republic Navy: She's a doctor, she was happy to be a doctor, she's only fighting because - and as long as - she has to, and I like that. The others are career military, not much room for rp angst there.
I'm not a Romulan doctor, but I play one on STO.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 421
# 169
03-08-2014, 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself-which would makes sense considering she was a member of Romulan Intelligence (or Tal'Diann as you call it) in TNG, and is established in her backstory in STO as being adversarial to the Tal Shiar. Missions would ideally have dialogue options to set the tone of your Captain-Tomalak-esque or D'tan-esque. Oh, what could have been.
woulda been better than what we got but theres a lot of options that would have been better and most are pretty obvious to even blind fools. A pity Cryptic didnt bother caring
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 902
# 170
03-08-2014, 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kantazo1 View Post
Sorry guys I was trying to make a Foundry mission but it is not working as plan. Hopefully I have it ready for next Friday. Until them save your energy and go back to drink wine with your Klingons masters.
So is there an ETA on this? Because the thread sort of just dissolved into bickering.
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Originally Posted by kjwashington View Post
That's right it's going to be another K'vort thread!
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