Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,049
# 501
03-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by abystander0 View Post

I liked it better than Voyager. It was ok, though the Temporal War thing was kind of dumb. The Mirror Universe episodes were interesting.
The Temporal War myth arc flat out sucked. I'm not just saying that because I hate time travel either. My only beef with the Xindi Arc was that it was such a huge thing to insert into the history without any kind of precursor. If they had replaced the Xindi with the Romulans or a Romulan servitor race so you don't actually see the Romulans it would've been aces.

The entire last season was golden in my view except of course, These are the Voyages.


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That was my point. It's really only limited use ship. (Unless you are going to shoot the one who took your woman, then it would be ideal )
It occurred to me that if you have warp 13 on one ship, why not on others?
Because as you said before, Starfleet does build limited use specialty ships. Are you aware of the old Federation Class? Franz Joseph stuff before he and Gene had their falling out. There's actually a design lineage and history for that configuration of ship.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_class

As for the Warp 13 one would think that it's an innovation only possible with the three nacelle configuration. In the game and in the original AGT timeline, this was warp 13 in the 2390s, so compared to the modern period in game it would be one of the earliest Transwarp capable Starfleet vessels.

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But doesn't that defeat the point of having it? Think about it. It's an offensive weapon who's potential can only be realized on the offense. (though against the Borg it might be more useful) It's not going to be cloaked all the time,and as long as it's not on alert, it has no shields either.
No. Remember this is built on the Galaxy frame. The cloak is just a bonus, it's not the whole story here. The stealth is for the surprise attack sure, but that's not all it can do. Dreadnaught means takes a licking and keeps on ticking. I'd say it's equally effective on defense, aren't you the one arguing it should be a tank? It is. And blindsiding any ship isn't easy. In the 24th century and beyond ship's shields tend to pop up as soon as an attack is detected. The point of a ship with capabilities like that is that you don't want to fight it at all.

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As for the Klingons, I definitely would risk using a handful of cloaked BoP's to see about taking out a Galaxy-X while it is docked, under repair/refit, or just sitting idle. Same for the Romulans, though they would probably opt for something covert over brute force.
But Space docks have their own defenses to begin with. And hitting the space dock is a more valuable target than just destroying a single Dreadnaught. Furthermore, you would rotate. You don't just put the dreadnaught in dock off station and not have a relief ship.

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It would be better in many ways, just to mount the spinal phaser on fixed defenses such as space stations, where you could dedicate a power system just for it. You could still have the deterrent factor, but without the loose cannon, or mailed fist issues.
How do you know they don't? Though you would have to fix multiple lances, since Starbases can't maneuver. And looking at that cannon it looks like it's big enough to have a dedicated power system. I'm telling you would I would slap a class 7 warp core into the base of that thing and call it a day.

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The Terran Empire certainly would. Look back at history. The use of force or terror is often the tool of choice for a tyrant.

That's my point. Why would the Federation need such starship in the larger scheme of things. The only thing it does better than any other ship is to sneak up on a target and blow it out of space. For most of what the Federation does, this is unnecessary.

The Son'a: Yeah, they would deserve it, but I doubt the Federation council would sanction indisciminate Pew Pew. Other big starships would work though. I don't think the spinal phaser has a stun or disable setting.
But this isn't the Terran Empire. And it isn't going to be the Terran Empire.

Section 31 is a far larger threat to the Federation's reputation as a peaceful actor than any class of retrofitted dreadnaughts.

It would need such a ship because people are trying to kill us. And seriously, it doesn't need to sneak up on something to blow it out of the stars. The Treaty of Algeron is interesting though, apparently the Romulans were terrified of what Starfleet could do with a cloak.

And yes for most of what the Federation does, but if you're going to fight a war, fight it.

The Federation Council would certainly not utilize indiscriminate firing in any situation and Starfleet doesn't train their captains to do that.

You never know on that stun setting. The phaser is very precise. Remember in a Piece of the Action, when Kirk ordered the Enterprise to use the ship's phasers to stun an entire street of mobsters? There's no analog of a Howitzer with stungun or tear gas function. The Phaser Lance might be able to knock the EPS system completely offline without singing the hull.

You know if you look at it, it's clearly a sniper weapon. Looking at the damage normal Type X phasers can do, the Lance could be more about shield penetration. And armor penetration. And hull penetration. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a .01% power setting.

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Depends on the group and what their goals are, as well as how the rest of a populace regards them.
Always.

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It's a matter of threat potential and message. The Galaxy class are flexible ships, powerful, yes, but they also perform many other functions besides warfare. You can send a Galaxy class or most other ships to do pretty much anything. Most of the rest of civilized space recognizes that, and isn't unduly threatened when a Starfleet ship shows up. The Galaxy-X only has one purpose, and that is to blow things up.
Of course.

And it's still a Starfleet vessel. They would say, man Starfleet sure is strapping big guns on nowadays, this thing with the Borg/Klingons/whoever, must be giving them real problems. But again you're assuming that you're going to send a Galaxy-X on the same missions that you would send a Galaxy on. Discard what would you do about Maxwell, and think about Jellico when he forced that fleet of Cardassian ships out of the Nebula. Think about the Enterprise-D facing the Borg prior to Wolf 359.

It does have it's place.

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Problem with the Ansata is that they had a means of attacking the ship, and with enough fighters, could have taken it over with a well coordinated attack...A ship with a cloak would have been an inviting target.
Riker would've self destructed it before letting that happen. But at this point you're just arguing that any ship with a cloak could be the same problem. If it was Negh'var it would be just as dangerous. Notice that the Federation isn't as worried about such things with enemies that can cloak on two major borders. That's because cloaks (barring the Broken bird the Scimitar) aren't infallible.

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The Prytt weren't terrorists. They were another political entity on the planet in question. The very fact there was a Federation starship there at all was a threat to the Prytt. The Enterprise really had no business being there. The planet wasn't ready for admission. The Prytt were rightly justified in their fears of the Kes getting Federation backing. While the Enterprise itself wasn't necessarily an issue, a Galaxy-X could have been viewed by the xenophobic Prytt as a precursor to either invasion, subjugation, or destruction, and taken it upon themselves to attack the Kes before any alliance or Federation membership could be realized. One is just a big starship, the other is a weapon.
The kidnapping was a terrorist tactic however (though that's to be expected of isolationist fascists).

Then blame the Kes, they were the ones who invited them to evaluate their application for membership. The Prytt were only justified from their perspective. It was still a foolish move. Funny enough it's the opposite logic of the Ansata. The Ansata kidnapped Crusher and attacked the Enterprise for precisely the reason that the Prytt were wrong. They only drew more attention to themselves. If the situation wasn't resolved they were going to be guaranteeing more Starfleet interference in the near future. Fortunately for them this is the Federation who if you tell them to go away, will go away barring any other vital interests. Such a tactic would've virtually guaranteed their annihilation if it was the Klingons. That's not an issue of what starship, that was the Prytt's paranoia working against them.


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Yes and no. It depends on the threat the ship represents. A covert operation or the network needed to pull off such a thing is difficult and expensive in both time and resources. The target would have to represent a shift in power, or a significant threat to make it worthy of such an operation. You are not going to blow that kind of effort on Mirandas, or even Nebulas.

Problem with using the E-D as an example is it was as much a character as the crew, and had plot armor. It would be bad for the show if the Enterprise went boom mid season.
Well the funny thing is the E-D had plot armor like a kunoichi in a video game. Lots of pleasing openings. Frankly it was too vulnerable some times. For the sake of plot.


A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is a shift in power in an area. It ain't that easy.

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Historically Starfleet has been able to do that with a sufficiently large fleet of capable ships. Sending a warship to anyone under the guise of peace is basically waving a knife at them. I doubt the Klingons would see it as respect, many of them could take it as an insult that the Federation would send a warship to conduct any sort of negotiations. This is because the Federation frames themselves as peacemakers, diplomats, and explorers, not warriors. Most cultures understand that the Federation has military power without it being waved under their nose.
Well the perception for many people is that the Federation flies around warships anyway. It's the inverse of the Orion joke. If it's the Klingons that see a Galaxy class flying around it's a Federation Battlecruiser, if it's the Bynars they see a flying computer core, if it's the Romulans it's that little ship, if it's a peaceful society it's a science ship, if it's the Jem'Hadar all ships are targets. What the ship is, is more about what the society thinks about you. I wouldn't send a G-X on a first contact mission for instance, that's not the initial impression you want to make. On the other hand if they were still around the Husnock may think that the Galaxy-X is pathetically underpowered.

The Armistice with Japan was signed on board the USS Missouri. Keep in mind that the Federation does not have that many dedicated diplomatic vessels. All Starfleet vessels must ultimately be all things regardless of their class.

I think you have a gross misunderstanding of Klingon culture in that regard. It's like the Krogan. Even their ambassadors have to be brutal warriors. Look at S'Tass. Jem Hadar attack, tear them apart with teeth and claws. I'll let the the Commander in Chief speak on it.

C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.

The Klingons sent their Chancellor on board their top Heavy Warship at the time. If you respect a Klingon do not speak softly, speak loudly and directly, say it to their face. (and with your chest out.). Don't cruise in with all of your weapons armed. I would much rather have them come aboard my ship to a diplomatic function and say, "This is a fine warship." Then have the whole worthless garbage scow discussion. General Chang was excited to meet who he felt was the Federation's greatest warrior. You say they would take it as an insult if you sent a warship, they would actually take it as an insult if you send anything less than a warship. These are the guys that during their civil wars they're blasting each other out of the sky in the day and then partying til the sun comes up with the guys they were shooting at the same night.

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Three Defiants can do that just as well as a single Galaxy-X will. So for that matter will a normal Galaxy class. You don't need a cloaking BFG to get that message across. If you do, then they are not looking at your military situation as a whole, or seeing your society as weak. If that is the case, then I doubt the cloaking bfg will help. You will still be seen as weak. It's a matter of mindset, and cultural attitude.
I don't think three Defiants can dismantle a Negh'var like that. (The Regents ship on the Mirror side doesn't count it's one of the largest ships in the franchise and dwarfs our side's Negh'var.)

That works both ways. If they've decided that you're a military expansionist power then whether you're using a dozen little Defiants or one giant Galaxy they're still gonna be scared of you.

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Mutual Assured Destruction only worked because both sides were afraid of pulling the trigger, were within reach of each other, and shared the same planet. It doesn't work in the context of the Star Trek universe, in my opinion, unless each side was willing to obliterate whole planets, like with the planet killer, somethig that Starfleet abhors.
The Klingons abhor destroying whole planets like that as well, but that doesn't mean you don't keep your fleets strong. Though I used the example of nukes, Strategic Deterrence has many subtle levels.

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Lol

I am still waiting for mine.
You know, this review of the Bortas really made me wonder on the subject of a Klingon Dreadnaught. It is long but I dig Umbreona's reviews, he's pretty thorough and knowledgeable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA8yQZ15Sjw

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No, it's not invincible. Think of it as an early submarine. It can choose when and where to engage, and when to break off an engagement.
When it does chose to engage, it can obliterate almost any ship with a volley from the spinal phaser before the other ship could respond. You would have to counter it with a fleet, expecting to lose some ships. Quite frankly it doesn't need any other weapons to be considered a weapon of mass destruction. That spinal phaser is a hugely powerful direct fire weapon (we have no idea what it would do directed against a planet). As for being one for one with the Scimitar, the Scimitar would be torn apart by the spinal phaser, should it ever land a hit (remember that it passed unabated through a fully shielded Negh'var ), the problem being finding it to fire.
Well the cloak is a direct analog for a Submarine diving so that is the comparison. Well we know that a Mk X phaser can drill several kilometers into a planet's crust. But I don't see it cracking the crust like an Eclipse class' superlaser.


As Reynold said, a single ship tying up a fleet is a tremendous edge in a battle, especially if they can't destroy it easily or quickly.

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Yes, but running the ship into a planet would end their reign of terror, solving the issue on it's own.
That means little to the billions dead.

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He may very well have been right about what the cardassians were up to. That was no justification for his actions though. He did exactly the same as the Cardassians who killed his family, a preemptive strike to destroy a perceived weapons depot.
The episode made it clear he was right. That was followed up later with Chain of Command.

But he had become exactly what he hated. He who fights monsters.

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If he had access to a Galaxy-X he would have been virtually unstoppable, and thousands would have died, from his assault.
To your point, that already happened. The Cardassians couldn't stop him, and Picard used diplomacy in the guise of a trusted friend to put an end to it. That would work on a Nebula or a Galaxy-X.

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Remember that Maxwell wasn't operating in a vacuum either. His crew was going along with him, which should had them before a board of inquiry (we don't know what happened to them after that).
The crew was actually backing his play. They believed that they were acting in the best interests of defending the Federation. That said, I'm 100% positive that there was a round of court-martials for everyone.

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Heh, you don't need to lower your shields to talk, but you don't need s cloak and a bfg to do that either.
No, but they come in handy.

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He didn't have to because he had those advantages, that and the Enterprise could track the Phoenix wherever it went. Maxwell realized his situation was hopeless. However if he had the ability to cloak, that might have changed. He could hunt Cardassians at will.

The situation with the Galor in game is Cryptic playing 'cool starship' card again. They were decent ships, but tended to be inferior to the latest Federation hulls. Not like what we have in the game.
He was hunting Cardassians at will. Even on the Enterprise's leash he went off to hunt them again. Maxwell's not the best example though because he didn't go the full Shane, he had a point to prove and still thought he was being the hero. Which is why he was trying to validate his case to Picard instead of firing on the Enterprise so he could continue his crusade. His vendetta clouded his judgment but he was acting on a legitimate concern.


Agreed. If it was the Keldon class I could maybe understand, but the Galor was shown to be below the Nebula and the Galaxy in strength. We can't even say that they're major upgrades since they're surplus Cardassian ships sold by Ferengi.

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Riker had a specific target in mind. Maxwell, had a broader target selection to choose from, and unless Gul Macet was willing to spill the beans on what his probable targets were, they would have no idea what he was up to.

Imagine Thomas Riker with a Galaxy-X as well.[/quote]
Actually they did have an idea what he was up to. Basic detective work. He was hitting specific cargo ships running that high power sensor jamming. That was a start. They did you a little detective work in those episodes.

Doubtless if the Maquis had access to a top tier Starfleet Dreadnaught then they certainly would've gone buck wild on the Cardassians. And Starfleet and the Cardassian military would've worked together building tachyon nets and sharing information until it was found and until it was many people would've died.

That's a risk with any ship. You don't not build a ship because of those risks otherwise no one anywhere would build weapons of any kind.



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True, but while the Defiant certainly has an impressive amount of firepower. It generally can't obliterate battleships in a single volley.


I don't think we're going to reach a consensus or understanding on this, even though I'm enjoying the conversation. We both have valid points that are fully applicable in different situations and different species and cultures.
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Quantity over quality.
Starfleet has always practiced quality over quantity.

Though in the case of the Yanks, that was more a case of the victory of suicidal determination.

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Perhaps, but all too often misconception causes people to act in a manner that is either self destructive, or destructive to what they hold dear. This is true for groups or societies as well.
That's for damn sure. But that's the risk with showing up with any kind of guns. Which after getting shot at a few times Captain Archer wasn't having that anymore.

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Don't blame me. It is an official designated ship type...sort of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat
In the modern navy, a boat is smaller craft (submarines count) a full size capitol vessel, is a ship.


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You would need the opposite. But there is no comprehensive list of ships, or assets, so we are left with educated guesses.
But the educated guesses indicate a very large fleet spread out over a very large volume of space.

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I bet you use things that work like fuses and circuit breakers too. With all the power related disasters we see onboard I would think that they would do something about that.
All consoles that would explode shunt the excess energy into the local inertial dampening field. And there's a film over the touch consoles that keeps exploding consoles from spraying their operators with shrapnel.


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Which says to me that either the Breen were incapable of doing more extensive damage due to damage inflicted by Starfleet and orbital defenses, or they had other things to worry about. Capturing Earth or completely devastating it would have been a major blow. Hitting SFC like that was significant, but it didn't take humans or Earth out of the fight. I don't remember them hitting the shipyards at mars, which would have been a crippling blow.
That was the point. They got torn apart by the Sector 001 defense fleet and only managed to get a few fighters down to San Fran. It was basically a slap in the face announcing their arrival.

The Klingons hit the shipyards on their side, a good little mission, though I feel it made Starfleet's security measures look dumb as rocks.

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Heh, a queue of NPCs lining up to fight you. Imagine being followed around by a trail of enemy ships. A fight breaks out when someone tries to cut in.


Seriously though this would seriously help the endgame monotony.

I don't see it happening anytime though because it can't be monetized. *sigh*
On the subject of respect, I am sick to death of the damn Breen talking crap to you in every mission. "Did you forget that time we hit Starfleet Headquarters?" That's their one. That's their one. They don't like to talk about the fact that they didn't get a single ship back from that mission. They don't like to talk about the fact that they lost the war or that they picked the wrong side. They don't like to talk about how they were clearly infiltrated by the Founders like suckers?

Actually I can see that being a set of accolades. Like the Borg Unimatrix ships and the Capitol ship accolades. Once you get to tier five while running a mission you have a chance of being attacked by Captain such and such Son of Whoever of the House of Whatever. Say one elite Klingon Captain per Sector Block. Who has come to test your mettle in battle. Maybe you get a special drop or something if you win. If you beat them all you get an accolade titled White Whale of the Empire or the Greatest Warrior/Song Ever Told. Get attacked in Gamma Orionis by a Klingon general in a Bortas. Each one should present a different challenge like a B'Rel Retrofit that keeps cloak firing on you, or a Vo'quv with its flight wing of B'Rels (by yourself instead of with a team like in Cure Found), a Raptor drain build.

And have one for each rep and enemy species that makes sense, so it would be, Klingon, Hirogen, Gorn, Tal Shiar, and Tholian.
Yes I support This

"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,049
# 502
03-13-2014, 02:17 PM
I just experienced supreme irony.

I was playing the new Mirror Universe event, good, but man is that Elite OP, but the hilarious thing is that I got 86'd by the USS London, a Terran Galaxy Dreadnaught....but it killed me with a Gravity Well .

Which means the Terran G-X has a LtCdr science slot. :lmao

That's classic.
Yes I support This

"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 860
# 503
03-13-2014, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaind3 View Post
I just experienced supreme irony.

I was playing the new Mirror Universe event, good, but man is that Elite OP, but the hilarious thing is that I got 86'd by the USS London, a Terran Galaxy Dreadnaught....but it killed me with a Gravity Well .

Which means the Terran G-X has a LtCdr science slot. :lmao

That's classic.
LoL, I'm putting money on that being in the next lock box as one of the mirror secondary ships.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since Beta.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs.
Take one down, patch it around.
127 little bugs in the code...
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2
# 504 Exploration Cruisers
03-13-2014, 10:18 PM
Has anyone else had issues with changing the look of the Exploration Cruisers after the revamp? Ever since they did, the only skins I have available to custimize it with are the Galaxy and Venture class. The Noble, Celestial, and Envoy classes are missing for me.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,166
# 505
03-13-2014, 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by khamseenair View Post
LoL, I'm putting money on that being in the next lock box as one of the mirror secondary ships.
Ditto, I kinda want one actually.
HAIL HYDRA!

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MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,369
# 506
03-16-2014, 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakoov5 View Post
Has anyone else had issues with changing the look of the Exploration Cruisers after the revamp? Ever since they did, the only skins I have available to custimize it with are the Galaxy and Venture class. The Noble, Celestial, and Envoy classes are missing for me.
The Noble class is an option for the Assault Cruiser.

The Celestial and Envoy class skins are only available for the tier 4 (Captain rank) Exploration Cruiser and c-store Refit. It has always been that way. The tier 5 Exploration Cruiser Retrofit has never had them.

I'm guessing it's because the tier 4 versions can't use saucer separation and they haven't worked the Envoy and Celestial skins to work with it for the tier 5 ship. It would be nice if they could make those skins available for the tier 5 Galaxy, and the Dreadnaught, though the Dreadnaught would probably need some artwork for the third nacelle, on top of making it work with saucer separation.
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