Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 15
# 11
03-12-2014, 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rylanadionysis View Post
Also, according to CLR DPS League the average DPS of all reported players is 7162.56 as of the time of this post.
Thanks for responding but please follow the requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by potencethe1st View Post
My fleet assault cruiser has 24k in a great group before but I've not been able to replicate that.

I think I'll take this challenge on in my vesta...
Hope to see your CombatLogs soon then. Remember, the point of this exercise is to find your ship's average DPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daeyna View Post
You will not receive favorable acknowledgement from a large portion of the dps channel crowd.
It seems like many players are scared to follow this benchmark, I have a few guesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxhellspawnyxxx View Post
I'd suggest you only use Solo ISE runs for your calculations to avoid interference from teammates. Skills like tactical fleet or beta / FOMM / disruptor debuffs will always have an influence on the DPS values of every participant.
As long one follows the instructions in this test, it should not matter too much. I hope to see you participate in this experiment as well.

In my first post I've uploaded an actual example showing how dependable this benchmark is.
Also, I'll repeat, follow the requirements to this experiment, I would not bother with any DPS claims. 5 CombatLogs are required from each participant. Deadline is extended till the end of this month (March 31st).
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 12
03-13-2014, 04:49 AM
You do know that this is more an exercise in frustration more then anything else. Even as a Human engineer i'll still be receiving up to 80% of the damage. I've received over 1 torpedo hit per sec before. 352 torpedo hits in 344 sec in fact. And my heals per sec were over 1,400. Along with the length of the fight due to a pug run this means i'll probably die once. Pugs will stay between 8-10km away from their targets and do 5k dps if they're lucky. Also you can get stuck running a pug with 5 engineers. I tried this earlier today and had 4 engineers and 1 science captain for my pug. And sure enough i died and my overall dps dropped to just below 19k. Arg screw this.

/pulls hair out

I like the idea of testing the average dps when doing a pug run. This would make the glass cannons have to switch in more defensive abilities. Instead of using their all offense and no defense for those 30k+ dps non pug runs. But again i'm a human engineer. I'm setup for defense and i still can't survive a run unless i get real lucky or the pug isn't a bad group like the one i tried earlier. So i'll have to pass for now. Perhaps when i cool off i'll continue this exercise in frustration.

The variance of dps is quite a lot due to the players in the pug. While i'm in the 20k 10k dps public channels i have never once done any STFs with those people. I see people forming groups etc and i just ignore it. I'm more about helping my fleet mates improve their dps. So all my STFs are run in pugs or average to well below average fleetmates. Highest i've gotten is a bit over 25.8k dps in a pug and the lowest lately would be in the 18k dps range. That's a huge variance. I don't see how you can get an accurate representation when the variance is that high. And it's not me that's causing the variance, unless i die. It's more the team makeup. How many tacs are in the group. Are they using APB3 or 2 or no APB at all. Is there a tac to do Fire on my mark. Do they just plain suck. Sadly they usually do.

I just don't understand why most of the players can't even do 10k dps when i can autofire for that amount and not use 1 single ability. It's more about range then anything else. But they're to scared to get close to anything. It drives me quite mad. And by mad i mean insane. I never get mad or angry at people unless they make some asinine remark. Or some fool posts in 6 or more channels his teams dps ISE run. Those spammers need to be kicked from all the dps channels imo. We don't care that you got 41k dps so stop the damn spamming in every single one of the channels i'm in.

Anyways i'm ranting now. Carry on dudes.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 03-13-2014 at 05:07 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 99
# 13
03-13-2014, 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonsbite View Post
. I don't see how you can get an accurate representation when the variance is that high.
^^ this

as co-founder of dps channels and dps league, i have done hundreds of pug runs in an attempt to gain a general understanding of what the "average" dps/player ability is (data base is now upto about 4000 individual player records), and my personal variance has been between 25k and 45k in a pug que.

why...?
coz thats the nature of the pug sometimes you get good groups other times not, its most certianly NOT a true reflection of YOUR ability if you want that i agree with hellspawny you need to do it SOLO
teams performance and your own performance within that team are what gives you the outcome on a pug run personally with a great team ive done 82.9k in ise as a full run how..? coz i had a very good team and im a very capable player will i get that in a pug run HELL NO ill get roughly half that because thats how the good players have evolved with non evolving content.

TL: DR
if you want to measure 1 persons ability/contribution then make them actually solo it.
if you want to measure 1 persons ability/contribution within a team, that already exists (DPS league)
if you want to measure a team performance again thats in the DPS league as speed runs
MY SPEED RECORDS KASE: 13:38 CSE: 13:52 ISE: 13:51 HSE: 2:58 NWS: 6:35

Solo STF's With Optional ISE: 3:34
i have all logs saved of these so if you would like to view them send me a pm and it can be arranged
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 15
# 14
03-15-2014, 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonsbite View Post
I like the idea of testing the average dps when doing a pug run. This would make the glass cannons have to switch in more defensive abilities. Instead of using their all offense and no defense for those 30k+ dps non pug runs. But again i'm a human engineer. I'm setup for defense and i still can't survive a run unless i get real lucky or the pug isn't a bad group like the one i tried earlier.
First, I play as an Human Engineer too. As one can note in this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ux5xE/pubhtml#) I can still carry pugs and tank just fine. So I don't understand your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonsbite View Post
Highest i've gotten is a bit over 25.8k dps in a pug and the lowest lately would be in the 18k dps range. That's a huge variance. I don't see how you can get an accurate representation when the variance is that high.
Also, I don't understand how you can be doing 18~25k DPS on average and still get frustrated by pugs? Any run should finish in less than 3 minutes if you are carrying the team with 18~25k DPS. Furthermore, variance does not matter since I am gathering all 5 player's results in a CombatLog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonsbite View Post
Or some fool posts in 6 or more channels his teams dps ISE run. Those spammers need to be kicked from all the dps channels imo. We don't care that you got 41k dps so stop the damn spamming in every single one of the channels i'm in.
If you really do like this idea and want to quiet those 41k DPS players, then you should promote this benchmark instead. It's not like one person can change the majority's opinion's alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agresiel2 View Post
as co-founder of dps channels and dps league, i have done hundreds of pug runs in an attempt to gain a general understanding of what the "average" dps/player ability is (data base is now upto about 4000 individual player records), and my personal variance has been between 25k and 45k in a pug que.
If you really have 4,000 individual records and done hundreds of pug runs, they should look similar to my Spreadsheet 1 data. In fact, the numbers should even be even better since I have only 268 results on mine. You should also be aware that there's realistic DPS (done on average) and the very high values that comes up because of your "very good teams".

Quote:
Originally Posted by agresiel2 View Post
why...?
coz thats the nature of the pug sometimes you get good groups other times not, its most certianly NOT a true reflection of YOUR ability if you want that i agree with hellspawny you need to do it SOLO
teams performance and your own performance within that team are what gives you the outcome on a pug run personally with a great team ive done 82.9k in ise as a full run how..? coz i had a very good team and im a very capable player will i get that in a pug run HELL NO ill get roughly half that because thats how the good players have evolved with non evolving content.

TL: DR
if you want to measure 1 persons ability/contribution then make them actually solo it.
if you want to measure 1 persons ability/contribution within a team, that already exists (DPS league)
if you want to measure a team performance again thats in the DPS league as speed runs
Repeating what you said, DPS League is a measure of team performance which can be influenced by how good a team can stack Crit, debuff's, consoles, etc,. Players can get 2~3 friends that can do high DPS, queue normally, and that call that a pug run.

Here are also some builds that claims to have high DPS, I find them rather questionable.
Quote:
i recommend the skill tree in this build. mine is very close to it.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...ulksscimi_5833
This was recommended as a Aux2Bat build but does not have any points in Starship Batteries. There are also too much points in Warp Core Eff, Potential, and Weapons performance for my liking. Lastly, there are uneven ground points as well.

Quote:
not 30k, but this is a 60k torp build. http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...pscimitar_4234
Is that 60k DPS sustainable?

Actually this build is just another version of the earlier scimitar build, I didn't notice the first time. I still find it faulty however.

Furthermore, Solo ISE is not perfect in my opinion. The total average damage done by all players in a ISE run is around 12,360,972 damage. If you did a solo run in around 10 minutes, you'll be guaranteed a 20k DPS result. (12,360,972/600 = 20601.619) Averagely, players only do around a cap of 6 million damage in an normal ISE run, so it doesn't match up. What I also find contradicting is about recommendations of solo ISE is when a large majority of players still follow DPS league.

If you guys still don't understand, this benchmark is trying to figure out how good people's builds are (not individual skill), thus taking average damage with set variables is reasonable. There are lots of 30k, 60k, 80k DPS builds but I want to know if they work. I find players who take team performance for individual credit doesn't mean much.

Last edited by arpeggione; 03-16-2014 at 02:46 PM.
Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 388
# 15
03-15-2014, 04:07 PM
Any match with other people in it regardless of premade or pug will have an effect on your own "true" dps.

Any debate on this matter is futile regardless of whatever means you think you can apply to make it less relevant.

Any pug match is subject to random variance based on team mate skill. If I pugged a match and lo and behold there were good people in that match, then the match would be better and everyone's dps would be up. If I did this even just 1/5 runs as stated in the op, the average would still be higher than someone that had mediocre/bad players in their match, even if I and said person would be using the exact same build. Teammates no matter how bad or good would cause disruptions in a "true" dps test.

As other people have already stated, the only truly accurate way to test your own dps meaning not supplemented by a team of any kind, would be to run a SOLO Ise.

Just because you said well hell I'll average the numbers together does not negate the fact that teammates will effect your dps, and since there is no way to control your teammates anything outside of a solo ise will not reflect accurate self made numbers.

In Mal's 83k build, you say there is too much ground points, yet the space points is maxed at 300,000/300,000. If you know how to exceed this number please share as I am just that everyone here is very interested in this.

You say players who take team performance for individual credit doesn't mean much, but that's exactly the parameters you have set forth in the OP, the runs still consist of a team, and that team is based on RNG.

Last edited by jack24bau3r; 03-15-2014 at 04:18 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 608
# 16
03-15-2014, 04:38 PM
OP has stated that running with a "good team" will artificially inflate DPS numbers for a variety or reasons.

However the issue that the OP doesn't seem to get is that running with a "bad team" will artificially deflate DPS numbers for the exact same reasons.

Neither way is an accurate measure of your solo DPS. In an MMO solo DPS is irrelevant anyway.

Let me put it another way: if i benchmark my computer on a cold day i'm going to get better numbers than when i benchmark my computer on a hot day. is one benchmark more accurate than the other? No, it's a benchmark. it's not supposed to be an accurate representation of anything.
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 15
# 17
03-15-2014, 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack24bau3r View Post
Any match with other people in it regardless of premade or pug will have an effect on your own "true" dps.

Any debate on this matter is futile regardless of whatever means you think you can apply to make it less relevant.

Any pug match is subject to random variance based on team mate skill. If I pugged a match and lo and behold there were good people in that match, then the match would be better and everyone's dps would be up. If I did this even just 1/5 runs as stated in the op, the average would still be higher than someone that had mediocre/bad players in their match, even if I and said person would be using the exact same build. Teammates no matter how bad or good would cause disruptions in a "true" dps test.

As other people have already stated, the only truly accurate way to test your own dps meaning not supplemented by a team of any kind, would be to run a SOLO Ise.

Just because you said well hell I'll average the numbers together does not negate the fact that teammates will effect your dps, and since there is no way to control your teammates anything outside of a solo ise will not reflect accurate self made numbers.

In Mal's 83k build, you say there is too much ground points, yet the space points is maxed at 300,000/300,000. If you know how to exceed this number please share as I am just that everyone here is very interested in this.

You say players who take team performance for individual credit doesn't mean much, but that's exactly the parameters you have set forth in the OP, the runs still consist of a team, and that team is based on RNG.
While some of my statements may seem contradictory or false, not all of them are. I'll agree that I may have slipped when looking at Mal's build or that it is futile to argue about this (since not everyone is going to change), but what we can agree on there is no truly accurate way to parse for DPS without an in game parser(and this is reinforced by many people's replies).

Furthermore, the reason why I ask for so much logs (5 per person), is lets say 20 people submit 5 logs. That is approximately 500 results. It's not just about you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasmdetector View Post
OP has stated that running with a "good team" will artificially inflate DPS numbers for a variety or reasons.

However the issue that the OP doesn't seem to get is that running with a "bad team" will artificially deflate DPS numbers for the exact same reasons.

Neither way is an accurate measure of your solo DPS. In an MMO solo DPS is irrelevant anyway.
What's funny is that as much as I am reinforcing the idea that a "good team" will artificially inflate DPS, many of these replies in this thread are just repeating a lot of what I said. Many players like you don't bother finding a solution to this loophole, instead you guys just go with the flow: parse for the highest number and show off. Then contradict yourself with statements like "In an MMO solo DPS is irrelevant anyway." (Solo DPS still matters).

Since you guys talk a lot about bad teams deflating DPS alot, I will also point out that when all CombatLogs done through random queues are added together, I believe the complete picture it will create will be a good representation of random queues because I am looking at the results of every single player in a CombatLog, not just the player in question.

When there is a complete picture of random queues, lets say 4,000 random queue CombatLogs which is approximately 20,000 player results. A player can do solo queue and compare his or her numbers to 20,000 results. The player can check his or her damage percentile and DPS percentile. We can also double check on whether a top DPS result is either extraordinary or manipulated through formulas (check my first post).

I would repeat that this is mainly meant for assessing a ship's build. A lot of it has to deal with personal progress. Let's say today you parsed 5 times and you get an average of this value, then one focuses on improving a build. A week later you parsed 5 times again. You can compare the two results. One can check whether your total time, total damage, and total DPS is improving.

This test is not all about true or solo DPS, I'll repeat this as many times as needed. Also, even if this test fails (because no one is participating), I hope it serves as reminder that DPS league is quite trivial. If you guys need a comparison, perhaps I can say that DPS League is striving for the best numbers through having "good teams" while this benchmark is perhaps making everyone play with "poorer teams" for a more constant value. DPS league may be that one race track everyone uses, I'm telling everyone to be more open to new ideas and try another variation of the same track.

Or maybe what I am trying to tell you veteran gamers, those that have been playing for years, (surprisingly I only played for three months), you guys haven't created a perfect system that can check whether each others results are valid.

Last edited by arpeggione; 03-15-2014 at 07:43 PM.
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