Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 141
01-25-2010, 05:31 PM
Scay, you're not even remotely close to being right.

First off, your analogy is completely worthless. Floppy drives are mechanical objects with moving parts, as are hard drives, which means that even if you did have software that could "destroy a hard drive within hours" (which I doubt), it still has no bearing on this discussion.

Processors are absolutely designed to run at full load for extended periods of time. What the hell did you think "Prime95/Furmark stable" meant? Many good builders, and all competent overclockers will run these programs for hours before considering a machine stable. On my machine, neither the GPU nor CPU reach unsafe temperatures under full load, topping out at 75C and 48C respectively (though the GPU usually doesn't pass 60C), and running them for hours, days, or even weeks would be no issue. Indeed, both are run intensively for hours a day as it is. Neither have aftermarket cooling, both are overclocked, and both do what you claim hardware can't do. So much for that theory.

Your examples of what would "damage" a card also have relatively little to do with reality. Having a card produce a mere 100fps in a 3d application is hardly a damaging activity. Again, my cards do it for hours a day, and before you make comments on the life of my hardware, my Radeon X850PRO from 2004 is still running without a hitch (now in a hand-me-down machine), and it's by far the worst cooled component I've ever owned due to its single-slot cooler.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 142
01-25-2010, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catamount View Post
Scay, you're not even remotely close to being right.

First off, your analogy is completely worthless. Floppy drives are mechanical objects with moving parts, as are hard drives, which means that even if you did have software that could "destroy a hard drive within hours" (which I doubt), it still has no bearing on this discussion.

Processors are absolutely designed to run at full load for extended periods of time. What the hell did you think "Prime95/Furmark stable" meant? Many good builders, and all competent overclockers will run these programs for hours before considering a machine stable. On my machine, neither the GPU nor CPU reach unsafe temperatures under full load, topping out at 75C and 48C respectively (though the GPU usually doesn't pass 60C), and running them for hours, days, or even weeks would be no issue. Indeed, both are run intensively for hours a day as it is. Neither have aftermarket cooling, both are overclocked, and both do what you claim hardware can't do. So much for that theory.

Your examples of what would "damage" a card also have relatively little to do with reality. Having a card produce a mere 100fps in a 3d application is hardly a damaging activity. Again, my cards do it for hours a day, and before you make comments on the life of my hardware, my Radeon X850PRO from 2004 is still running without a hitch (now in a hand-me-down machine), and it's by far the worst cooled component I've ever owned due to its single-slot cooler.
You can easily google up software to kill a harddrive.

Anyway, although a CPU and a GPU may be able to run 100% for some time, I can make ALL your computer components run at 100% all the time. That includes network, GPUs, all cores, harddrives, possibly CDROMS, everything. Just running your GPU and CPU at 100% will not overheat a working system, but if you increase the heat further by CDROM and HDDs it may. Maybe not on your computer if you built it in a fridge but certainly on a high percentage of computer systems sold.

Computers are just not made for running the entire system at full speed, and there is not a single software to test it, because its friggin stupid to do it, it will damage your computer over time.

I didnt say 100 FPS will damage your card, I said 100 FPS is an absolutely useless framerate that should never be produced. STO will produce FPS in the 1000th which may damage a weaker system though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 143
01-25-2010, 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scay
You can easily google up software to kill a harddrive.

Anyway, although a CPU and a GPU may be able to run 100% for some time, I can make ALL your computer components run at 100% all the time. That includes network, GPUs, all cores, harddrives, possibly CDROMS, everything. Just running your GPU and CPU at 100% will not overheat a working system, but if you increase the heat further by CDROM and HDDs it may. Maybe not on your computer if you built it in a fridge but certainly on a high percentage of computer systems sold.

Computers are just not made for running the entire system at full speed, and there is not a single software to test it, because its friggin stupid to do it, it will damage your computer over time.

I didnt say 100 FPS will damage your card, I said 100 FPS is an absolutely useless framerate that should never be produced. STO will produce FPS in the 1000th which may damage a weaker system though.
The operative words in that whole paragraph are "weaker system". STO will do nothing that can damage a properly fabricated, constructed and maintained system that runs at the proper specifications. Yes, software can damage hardware if it is designed to; I can damage hardware just by going into my BIOS (which is software, albeit rudimentary software), and maxing out my VCORE and FSB frequency. You can damage a floppy drive (or at least could at one time) by having software misalign the internal components, as certain viruses for the Amiga did years ago.

We are not, however, discussing whether it is possible to intentionally produce software which can directly or indirectly damage hardware. We are discussing Star Trek Online, a piece of software which cannot harm a system unless the system already has some failing within its hardware already, be it insufficient cooling, a bad component, old components, or a number of other weaknesses in hardware.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 144
01-25-2010, 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catamount View Post
We are discussing Star Trek Online, a piece of software which cannot harm a system unless the system already has some failing within its hardware already, be it insufficient cooling, a bad component, old components, or a number of other weaknesses in hardware.
It can harm a standard system people buy from supermarkets, discount shops or other non-geek ways to buy a computer. It doesnt matter if those computers for YOU are having weaknesses, they dont for the people that bought them.

You think its smart that STO is putting totally unneeded stress on the computers of their customers to a point that some will fail?

I dont.

I think Cryptic better fixes this asap.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 145
01-25-2010, 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scay
It can harm a standard system people buy from supermarkets, discount shops or other non-geek ways to buy a computer. It doesnt matter if those computers for YOU are having weaknesses, they dont for the people that bought them.

You think its smart that STO is putting totally unneeded stress on the computers of their customers to a point that some will fail?

I dont.

I think Cryptic better fixes this asap.

Scay I'm sorry but respectfully your just plain wrong on this topic. If you want proof please take my challenge and post your question on either of the above mentioned forums (MSDN or Nvidia developers forums). If you want proof of my credentials please don't hesitate to private message me. Frankly posts like the above are financially damaging to Cryptic, Microsoft, its partners, and the graphics card manufacturers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 146
01-25-2010, 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scay
I think Cryptic better fixes this asap.
Proof of your superior intellect.

Obviously, in your case, not all people are created equal. Some people can't handle the mental stress of being in combat arms branches of the military for years as I did. Some people just aren't cut out for it and can't handle it.

Obviously, in your computers case, not all machines are created equal. Some machines can't handle the stress of being subjected to demanding software. Some machines just aren't cut out for it and can't handle it.

See what I did there?

Your points are completely ignorant and invalid. Your back is to the wall because logic and truth prevail. You argue that it is possible for software to damage hardware. Yes, that is true. Although, the only software that can is MALICIOUS software!!!! STO is not malicious software and if it was, they could be sued and brought up on federal charges. The only thing STO is guilty of is being too demanding for some people's systems. For PC support outside of work, I charge $75 per hour, minimum of 3 hours and that's very cheap but there are always people who flip out and yell, "that's WAY too much!". Sorry if my skills and experience are too demanding and costly for your wallet. That's not my fault and being taxing on system hardware is not STO's fault.

Your only foot to stand on is irrelevant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 147
01-25-2010, 08:05 PM
Scay's logic seems to work something like this: STO is made to run on the PC platform, and grandma's Celeron-based Emachines PC with a Geforce 6150 is PC, therefore STO must be made to run on grandma's computer. It's a classic undistributed middle fallacy.

Of course, that's hardly the only fault in the logic he's displayed, but sufficing to say that Cryptic does not and is not required to write STO to work on any and all computers. STO is likely more demanding then it should be under cetain circumstances, and Cryptic should and probably will improve that in order to expand the array of hardware that the game can be run on, but as STO does nothing but execute logical instructions that do not directly modify hardware, it is still doing nothing outside the boundaries of what a proper computer should be able to handle. With this in mind, if STO damages your hardware, or run it outside of safe tolerances, Cryptic is not responsible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 148
01-25-2010, 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scay
It can harm a standard system people buy from supermarkets, discount shops or other non-geek ways to buy a computer.
This would have gotten it's true point across better if you'd said....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scay
It can harm a standard system that people get because they don't want to spend enough money to get a solid system and want to stretch it for all it's worth and still expect a 400 dollar machine to perform like a 3000 dollar machine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 149
01-26-2010, 04:35 AM
Sorry to interrupt the mind numbing bickering but does anyone know if turning vsync on is doing the same thing as the line you put in the advanced settings /perFrameSleep 10 ?

Thanks, and now back to the show. Coming up next is Dwain the father of LaTisha's fifth baby, we have the test results......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 150
01-26-2010, 04:50 AM
Just throught i'd add in my own temps and specs here for others to compare.

I7-860 @ 4.4ghz Cooled by a Corsair H50 using Noctua fans in push/pull
Asus P55A Formula III mobo
8gb Corsair dominator 1600mhz ram
2 x Sapphire 5870's (Crossfire)
1 x 64gb Corsair performance II SSD ( Boot drive only)
4 x 1TB Samsung F3's (Storage)
2 x 1TB Samsung F3's ((Games)raid)
Corsair 800D case all stock fans changed for noctua fans (60cfm @ 21db)

Cpu at 24 hours of prime 95 @ 64c
Gpu's using Ati tool Fur test as well as running 2 instances of 3dmark vantage with rthdbrl.exe running in the back ground, fans set to auto. Max temp recorded 75c
Ram does not go bast 40c
Ambient temp in the case is 28c

Also, i can see scay's points. But he seems like he does not know how to word himself properly. Yes you can get software to kill hdds, yes you can get software to run all of your components at 100% all of the time. But how much of a temp increase do you think having your optical drive running at 100% will do? My guess 0.5c at max. Having all hardware running at 100% is not a good indication of what the game will do for you, as at obvious points not all of your system resources will be used,. If you have a crappy little wallmart/emachines pc which you have decided to upgrade yourself with some badass hardware you more then likely didn't upgrade the case. The stock cooling on them is not going to provide adequate airflow over the components.

My 2c.
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