Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,264
# 51
07-03-2014, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguarskx View Post
Forget the TR-116A rifle.

Just gimme any World War II era or later full automatic machine gun. Sure, you can make use tritanium bullets instead of the "old" lead bullets like the TR-116A.

I am pretty sure .45 caliber ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) ammo still has good stopping power in the 25th century as it does now. However, using something that hard (24.1 times harder than diamond and is what ship bulkheads are made of) can actually lower the amount of damage done.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tritanium

The reason why ballistic weapons can do decent amount of damage and have sufficient stopping power is due to the deformation of the slug which is usually made of "soft" material like lead. When a bullet enters a body the sudden impact deforms the bullet. Additionally, the change in velocity causes the bullet to tumbling inside a body which also causes it to fracture into many pieces. It is this fracturing that actually causes the most damage because there are now several pieces travelling through the body. Each fragment can cause damage to separate organs as well as several sources of internal bleeding and it is this effect that determines the stopping power of a bullet.

With something as hard as Tritanium that basically means the bullet is more for armor piercing damage than trauma damage. A tritanium bullet could easily penetrate a body, remain whole (because it is 24.1x harder than diamond) and exit out of the body. Yes, the person that gets hit by a tritanium bullet will be wounded, but the wound would generally be less severe than a bullet made of lead and can deform inside a body.

Of course, it also depends on the entry point as well. Shooting someone in the head with a .45 caliber ACP round made of lead or tritanium will have the same end result.



I love hypothetical discussions like this. It gives me a chance for a major "geek out".



The .45 ACP, being a low powered handgun round, might not have sufficient penetration to defeat Borg body armor. Even with the jacketed steel-core Ball ammo used during the M1911s military service life, and a longer barrel as found on the Thompson SMG.


In other words, you want a rifle round, in a rifle.


In this hypothetical discussion, Starfleet might not have to rely on fragmentation for increased effectiveness against tissue and vital organs. Fragmenting jackets and excessive yawing are design concepts that has caught on as a means of getting around the silly St. Petersburg treaty on "acceptable" loadings for warfare, while maintaining sufficient penetration. Especially with intermediate cartridges like the 5.56mm NATO and 5.45mm Soviet. Controlled expansion, similar to some modern self-defense handgun loadings and Nosler's Ballistic Tip, would be the way to go, if Starfleet didn't saddle themselves with ridiculous restrictions out of the need to be the PR "white hats". Using a 25th Century take on these concepts, you would still get the penetration needed to defeat 25th Century body armor.


But with some enemies, the solid-core tritantium .30 round used by the TR-116 series might be necessary. All of the "stopping power" in the world won't help if the round can't get where it's supposed to be. In the case of a Borg drone, the critical cybernetic enhancements are not just external, but internal as well. The tritanium penetrator would still severely hamper a drone's combat effectiveness by destroying/damaging systems needed to function in such a state. Those same devices whose material would probably defeat a round with a softer core, minimizing both essential systems damage and tissue/vital organ damage (assuming it could penetrate the external defenses, and the Borg don't have cyber redundancies to loss of biological "parts"). And fragmentation/yawing would lessen the mass/energy needed for the slug to do it's job against these devices.



So, it would be a big trade off. Unless, Federation scientists could adapt something like Federal's real world expanding FMJ technology in such a way as to lessen the trade offs.



As, for using 25th Century ammo in 20th/21st Century firearms, that would depend on how much pressure the more advanced powders generated upon firing. The older metallergy might not hold up to it. And there is accelerated rifling wear that a super-hard tritanium bullet may cause in older firearms (assuming the older guns could even chamber the TR-116's cartridge in the first place). However, 25th Century replicas shouldn't be a problem, depending on the original design. And whether or not the TR's round is mechanically or electronically fired.




End of "geek out" post.
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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,257
# 52
07-03-2014, 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldravenman3025 View Post
I love hypothetical discussions like this. It gives me a chance for a major "geek out".



The .45 ACP, being a low powered handgun round, might not have sufficient penetration to defeat Borg body armor. Even with the jacketed steel-core Ball ammo used during the M1911s military service life, and a longer barrel as found on the Thompson SMG.
Ahh, but....

In Star Trek: First Contact, Captain Picard, ran a holodeck program when being chased by the Borg. No time period was given but I think it is safe to say that it takes place sometime during the 1930's - 1950's. He ran the program with the safeties off and he whipped out a Thompson Submachine gun (Tommy Gun) to mow down the Borg that was chasing them.

Assuming the holodeck scene is supposed to historically accurate (it was some type of detective holosuite story program), the Tommy Gun was firing good 'ol .45 ACP ammo using conventional gunpowder for the time period.


That's good 'ol American 20th century weaponry taking down a 24th century enemy.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,136
# 53
07-03-2014, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymo1 View Post
I always thought the only pre order bonus worth it was the liberated borg bridge officer.....which was put into the c store years ago. I'm glad to see this finally enter the game for all. Good Job Cryptic!
Unfortunately; It is Profession specific to Engineers, so it is pretty much untrainable by all other professions except Engineer class.

I wish they made profession variants of the Liberated Borg Bridge Officer, that way we could have a Sci or Tac LBBO.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,136
# 54
07-03-2014, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguarskx View Post

Assuming the holodeck scene is supposed to historically accurate (it was some type of detective holosuite story program), the Tommy Gun was firing good 'ol .45 ACP ammo using conventional gunpowder for the time period.


That's good 'ol American 20th century weaponry taking down a 24th century enemy.
Keep in mind it was still using energy, besides Borg have shielding, so slugs wouldn't even work after a while of use.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 14,240
# 55
07-03-2014, 01:07 PM
Its harder to analyze a solid projectile than it is an energy beam. The reason the Borg adapted to Phasers was because they were identifying the exact modulation/frequency that the energy beam was using, and countering that. Solid projectiles kinda don't have a modulation or frequency ro counter. Just the physical slug itself.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/144/0/2/sto_sig_character_by_rattler20200-d7jlk1h.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yang Xiao Long
At least you two have something that drives you. I've just always, gone with the flow, you know.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 56
07-03-2014, 04:38 PM
What about lobi store upgrade of TR-116A to mk12 version (50 crystals would be fine)?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 541
# 57
07-03-2014, 05:32 PM
In my opinion, if the TR-116B has a unique enough look and is Mk XII level, it might be better to have it renamed to something like the TR-121. Surely if Starfleet M.A.C.O. (according to the STO tie-in novel) have been using these against the Borg, there would have been new iterations over the decades since Nemesis like with the 2409 ships.

As for the properties of the bullets used, perhaps the jacketing mentioned above could allow for added stopping power, while still maintaining the tritanium bullet's piercing, although the jacketing would risk ablating away on stronger armors and materials. That or having alternate ammunition that could be chambered, at least lore-wise.

Technically, they could also load a bullet-scale torpedo detonation matrix into the bullets, or a small-scale EMP bomblet, or dispensable thermite charges or liquid nitrogen...

Last edited by theoryfive; 07-03-2014 at 05:38 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
# 58
07-17-2014, 12:17 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~Askray

Last edited by askray; 07-17-2014 at 12:27 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 940
# 59
07-18-2014, 08:54 AM
And those of us who bought the GameStop preorder got the tos enterprise.. And now
anyone can have it.

Get over it
If the next Star Trek is on Showtime or HBO, Kirk will look like a prude.

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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16,205
# 60
07-18-2014, 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldravenman3025 View Post
I love hypothetical discussions like this. It gives me a chance for a major "geek out".



The .45 ACP, being a low powered handgun round, might not have sufficient penetration to defeat Borg body armor. Even with the jacketed steel-core Ball ammo used during the M1911s military service life, and a longer barrel as found on the Thompson SMG.


In other words, you want a rifle round, in a rifle.


In this hypothetical discussion, Starfleet might not have to rely on fragmentation for increased effectiveness against tissue and vital organs. Fragmenting jackets and excessive yawing are design concepts that has caught on as a means of getting around the silly St. Petersburg treaty on "acceptable" loadings for warfare, while maintaining sufficient penetration. Especially with intermediate cartridges like the 5.56mm NATO and 5.45mm Soviet. Controlled expansion, similar to some modern self-defense handgun loadings and Nosler's Ballistic Tip, would be the way to go, if Starfleet didn't saddle themselves with ridiculous restrictions out of the need to be the PR "white hats". Using a 25th Century take on these concepts, you would still get the penetration needed to defeat 25th Century body armor.


But with some enemies, the solid-core tritantium .30 round used by the TR-116 series might be necessary. All of the "stopping power" in the world won't help if the round can't get where it's supposed to be. In the case of a Borg drone, the critical cybernetic enhancements are not just external, but internal as well. The tritanium penetrator would still severely hamper a drone's combat effectiveness by destroying/damaging systems needed to function in such a state. Those same devices whose material would probably defeat a round with a softer core, minimizing both essential systems damage and tissue/vital organ damage (assuming it could penetrate the external defenses, and the Borg don't have cyber redundancies to loss of biological "parts"). And fragmentation/yawing would lessen the mass/energy needed for the slug to do it's job against these devices.



So, it would be a big trade off. Unless, Federation scientists could adapt something like Federal's real world expanding FMJ technology in such a way as to lessen the trade offs.



As, for using 25th Century ammo in 20th/21st Century firearms, that would depend on how much pressure the more advanced powders generated upon firing. The older metallergy might not hold up to it. And there is accelerated rifling wear that a super-hard tritanium bullet may cause in older firearms (assuming the older guns could even chamber the TR-116's cartridge in the first place). However, 25th Century replicas shouldn't be a problem, depending on the original design. And whether or not the TR's round is mechanically or electronically fired.




End of "geek out" post.
I'd guess the first thing that a 25th century version would do is replace the powder with a modulated tractor pulse and push the bullet out the barrel that way. Hmm... I figure you could cram over a hundred rounds into the size of a modern 30-round magazine. But the main benefit is a higher muzzle velocity, and less kick.
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