Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
01-31-2010, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardein View Post
As the great Klingon strategist Sun Tzu once said:

"In conflict, straightforward actions generally lead to engagement, surprising actions generally lead to victory."

"Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy, but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril."

"Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate. "

So to sum up:
1. Don't be in a hurry. Think chess not ping pong.
2. Know the balance issues from both sides.
3. Don't expect Klingons to fight like Federation. Direct confrontation leads to quick death fro the Klingons at low ship tiers.
1. In chess, the opponent is forced to make A move to continue the game. The very problem I'm addressing is that Klingons tend to completely remove themselves from the game, either until the Federation players stop playing intelligently, or simply cloaking and going AFK to grief the other players.

2. Nerfing cloak will HELP the Klingons be balanced more reasonably. While cloak remains THE deciding factor, bar none, in a match, the Klingons will never be balanced to be able to go toe to toe with the Federation... because if they were, then Klingons would win every time. If the usefulness of cloak is reduced to more the level of a powerful BOff ability, then other stats of klingons can be brought more on par with the Federation.

3. I don't expect Klingons to fight like the Federation. However, I do expect them to fight. My proposed change does not change the tactics available (other than simply trying to wait out the other team), but it does put some kind of time pressure on the Klingons to execute their strategy efficiently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVeer
Ok then so using cloaking is grief play now? So if you would have it your way every single fight would be one on one and nobody could hit anybody elses target.

Now griefplay = Spawncamping at the start of a ground pvp map
Spamming the bejesus out of holds to make a player unable to act in ground pvp
Killstealing.

Isn't it amazing how all those 3 points I've already seen breached by several feds players over and over again weather I'm playing on either side?

Now those 3 i listed are grief play, fedballing (no matter how annoying) and cloak ambusing are both tactical aspects that can be exploited at there factions whim in order to gain an advantage, so nope cloak does not need fixing, your tactics need to change!
CLOAKING is not griefing. Cloaking for EXTENDED PERIODS with no intention of decloaking and executing a strategy is griefing. I have not said anything against cloak ambushing; in fact, if this is what was done the problem I'm describing would not exist. I just want the ambush to have to come at some point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
01-31-2010, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonster
You realize that's most likely because there's 1 klingon Vs 5 feds for the first 10 minutes? That's not a cloaking problem, that's a PVP Queue problem. Don't nerf our cloak just because it takes 10 minutes for our teams to actually fill up.
Waiting 10+ minutes for your team to show up then playing is significantly longer than just hitting respawn a few times and playing 2-3 matches in the same time frame... much more efficient use of your time....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
01-31-2010, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylenium
Waiting 10+ minutes for your team to show up then playing is significantly longer than just hitting respawn a few times and playing 2-3 matches in the same time frame... much more efficient use of your time....
Some of us are more concerned about winning than grinding XP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
01-31-2010, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonster
Some of us are more concerned about winning than grinding XP.
Then go play Starfleet Command. You'll win every time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
01-31-2010, 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesstair View Post
Then go play Starfleet Command. You'll win every time.
Then go off and play SFC yourself. We're here to win and leave your wrecked hulks floating in space in this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
01-31-2010, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesstair View Post
1. In chess, the opponent is forced to make A move to continue the game. The very problem I'm addressing is that Klingons tend to completely remove themselves from the game, either until the Federation players stop playing intelligently, or simply cloaking and going AFK to grief the other players.

2. Nerfing cloak will HELP the Klingons be balanced more reasonably. While cloak remains THE deciding factor, bar none, in a match, the Klingons will never be balanced to be able to go toe to toe with the Federation... because if they were, then Klingons would win every time. If the usefulness of cloak is reduced to more the level of a powerful BOff ability, then other stats of klingons can be brought more on par with the Federation.

3. I don't expect Klingons to fight like the Federation. However, I do expect them to fight. My proposed change does not change the tactics available (other than simply trying to wait out the other team), but it does put some kind of time pressure on the Klingons to execute their strategy efficiently.
They have already been listed several times but once more for the guy that wont listen:

1. Cloak drops shields, you can exploit this by barraging any klink going into cloak with torpedoes, if there below 80% hull there usually as good as dead.

2. Tractor beam stops them cloaking, particle burst reveals them and blocks there shields from functioning for a moment.

3. Minefields are a pain for all klinks, especially in a dogfight, use them.

4. They have a terrible hull/shield rating in comparison, this disparity increases badly in t2 where the klinks get 2 escorts and no cruisers, whereas feds get cruisers, escorts and science vessels.

5. Jam sensors buys you a few seconds in a firefight, its rather useful!

6. Stay together, either in pairs, trios or all of you, wandering out alone makes you easy pickings.

7. Sci Sensor sweeps have a rather good reveal radius against cloaked klinks, you should sensor sweep often!

8. TEAMWORK! dont be selfish, heal and buff each other! I only saw 1 fed ship healing himself in a match today, all the klinks were buffing and supporting each other whenever they could!

9. This is NOT WoW, drop out of the mentality NOW, there is no god class, no be all and end all, Teamwork is the key here and if you play it like WoW, expect to die A LOT.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
01-31-2010, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVeer
They have already been listed several times but once more for the guy that wont listen:

1. Cloak drops shields, you can exploit this by barraging any klink going into cloak with torpedoes, if there below 80% hull there usually as good as dead.

2. Tractor beam stops them cloaking, particle burst reveals them and blocks there shields from functioning for a moment.

3. Minefields are a pain for all klinks, especially in a dogfight, use them.

4. They have a terrible hull/shield rating in comparison, this disparity increases badly in t2 where the klinks get 2 escorts and no cruisers, whereas feds get cruisers, escorts and science vessels.

5. Jam sensors buys you a few seconds in a firefight, its rather useful!

6. Stay together, either in pairs, trios or all of you, wandering out alone makes you easy pickings.

8. TEAMWORK! dont be selfish, heal and buff each other! I only saw 1 fed ship healing himself in a match today, all the klinks were buffing and supporting each other whenever they could!

9. This is NOT WoW, drop out of the mentality NOW, there is no god class, no be all and end all, Teamwork is the key here and if you play it like WoW, expect to die A LOT.
All of which doesn't make a lick of difference if the Klingons never decloak in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVeer
7. Sci Sensor sweeps have a rather good reveal radius against cloaked klinks, you should sensor sweep often!
The radius is nowhere near large enough if the Klingons aren't in range for any kind of attack... which is exactly the situation I'm describing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
01-31-2010, 01:25 PM
A much better idea would be to just the queue and spawning system, this one would gimp klings early game, sometimes I've run into matches that take a while to get going but cloak griefing seems to be rare, you can do similar back by just flying to the bottom of the map.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
01-31-2010, 01:30 PM
We've said this many times to cryptic, it's up to them to resolve it. The problem is that the objectives of this pvp engagement are bad.

The objectives should not be 'get 15 kills' but rather 'kill the npc ship that the feds are escorting before it gets to position y'. Anything to make 'evading the enemy' not result in a stalemate.

The blame for playability falls squarely at the designer's feet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
01-31-2010, 01:30 PM
If you are really upset that Klingons will not decloak do the following and I guarantee they will uncloak:

- take your little ship and fly at least 20km from the fedball
- stop and wait

There, see that? They uncloaked.

If you keep doing that the match will be over before you know it and you can continue getting XP.

I think we should petition that feds should not be allowed to all stay within 10km of each other for longer than 2 minutes or they automatically lose. They are obviously just balling it up to grief the Klingon players since they know the klingon ships are not designed for ball versus ball gameplay. They should split up.
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