Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 512
# 51
07-28-2014, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peregry View Post
A failure to see and understand the political manipulation that D'tan and the Republic pulled off is not a failure on Cryptic's part, but is a failure on your part. Either you are blinded by your prejudice of D'tan and the Republic as "hippies", or you lack an understanding of the subtleties of international politics and history. From a political standpoint, D'tan not only not only got two warring empires to bankroll his efforts, he also managed to get them to recognize his state as the only legitimate successor state to the RSE. Politically, that's a big deal, for as far as the Federation and Klingons are concerned, the Republic represents all Romulan interests.

Further, to ensure neither side backs out, he pitted them against one another and further put Romulan forces throughout their space via the exchange (alliance) system so that if either one DID betray the Republic, the pre-deployed assets could exact a bloody cost. It also ensured that it was hard for either Empire to make moves against the Republic, as there were Republic ships involved in many of their efforts around the galaxy.

So the Republic has a knife to the back of the Klingons and Federation to ensure they act in good faith, they are recognized as the only legitimate Romulan state, and the Klingons and Federation bankroll their efforts to become the sole successor state left standing.

Does this put the Republic in the Federation and Klingon's debt? Yes, to a certain extent. A debt partially mitigated by allowing them access to the Dysons Spheres and the technology sharing arrangements. However, it means the Federation and Klingons are treating with the Romulans as an equal, rather than as a third rate power.

Now, you'll say NONE of this is stated by any NPC, that the ideas here are just conjecture or me "making excuses". However, that is REAL subtlety. When something is done with subtlety it is not laid out or explained, the situation is presented and conclusions are drawn. The fact you need your so-called subtlety and manipulations explained to you does not mean its not subtle it merely means you are not observant.

You may also claim that D'tan claims things that seem to be the exact opposite of these ideas. Well, of course he would, as he is playing to an audience that expects a good guy to say those kind of things. He is a politician. You'll also claim that he reveals nothing like that in the unguarded moments when its just other Romulans. That also makes sense, as Romulans are noted backstabbers and traitors, and the Tal Shiar clearly has operatives in the Republic, many of whom would love to catch him saying something unguarded to use to break up his alliances with the Klingons and Federation... so of course he's going to maintain that front.

Further, he does believe the ways of the old Star Empire were failing and is trying to create a new normal for Romulan politics, one based on less treachery and backstabbing, as those caused to many problems. One without fear for the normal Romulan citizen, as they clearly lived not in happiness but in constant fear.

So yes, the Republic is a "good guy" faction. Being subtle and manipulative does not make one a villain, nor is acting in the open and up front make one a good guy. However, much of their alliance with both the Klingons and Federation are premised on a very old form of diplomacy to ensure trustworthiness between parties: the "hostage exchange". Its a classic form of diplomacy used by many civilizations on Earth, and can often be very formal with declarations and specific individuals (see, for instance within Japan' feudal culture) or can be effectively unstated as a formal exchange but the base concept underlay all political interactions (see: The Cold War).


With all due respect I can't help laughing. the Republic has a knife to the Federation and Klingon Empires backs?...... The same Republic that occupies only a small part of Tau Dewa space maybe several planets being very generous, the same Republic that couldn't even defend New Romulus from the Elachi without the Federation and Klingon Empire? and the Same Republic that has a tiny tiny part of New Romulus settled? Someone has been drinking cryptics khellid necter too long.


Yet I sense a touch irony here you mention "a knife to their backs" wait wait stop the presses!!!!
So what do we call that? I'll let your post answer it for me (see original post in orange). *Gasp* "the old ways!" So this "Hostage exchange" type diplomacy you mention of pitting two factions against each other, is really nothing different then the tactics that the Romulan Star Empire used before.

Lastly to say that the Republic represents all Romulan interests is the same as saying the Federation represents all Human interests or the Klingon Empire all Klingon interests. Personal opinion and nothing more.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 739
# 52
07-28-2014, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
It's not hard to make the Republic look good when everyone around them has to act like fools in order for the whole relationship to work. That isn't subtlety, those are gaping plot holes you could fly a BORG CUBE through.
fixed it for ya
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,300
# 53
07-29-2014, 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by astro2244 View Post
With all due respect I can't help laughing. the Republic has a knife to the Federation and Klingon Empires backs?...... The same Republic that occupies only a small part of Tau Dewa space maybe several planets being very generous, the same Republic that couldn't even defend New Romulus from the Elachi without the Federation and Klingon Empire? and the Same Republic that has a tiny tiny part of New Romulus settled? Someone has been drinking cryptics khellid necter too long.


Yet I sense a touch irony here you mention "a knife to their backs" wait wait stop the presses!!!!
So what do we call that? I'll let your post answer it for me (see original post in orange). *Gasp* "the old ways!" So this "Hostage exchange" type diplomacy you mention of pitting two factions against each other, is really nothing different then the tactics that the Romulan Star Empire used before.

Lastly to say that the Republic represents all Romulan interests is the same as saying the Federation represents all Human interests or the Klingon Empire all Klingon interests. Personal opinion and nothing more.
The comcept is that with Romulans on Federation and KDF ships, they will either get advanced notice of hostilities. Mol'rihan will get advanced notice if they suddenly start going silent. Or and this is the knife. If they keep those captains in the dark, able to engage in retribution. Personally I see a fourth option.
Let's make the kdf the aggressors. They purge the romulan captains and assault mol'rihan. The romulan captains in th federation were outside their grasp. Now their enemy will have a group of blood sworn captains and they have little compunction to not hand the federation romulan battle cloaks.

The knife in this case is the "You kill me and you will die." scenario. Whether it is a bluff or not is debatable.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,456
# 54
07-29-2014, 11:51 AM
Alright, lets run a few variants of a scenario and consider what the ramifications would logically be-A Klingon raiding fleet is attacking a Federation convoy-a Romulan ship is part of both fleets:

1) High command is aware and tells both Romulan captains to stay out of the fleet: Klingons are angry because Romulans are cowardly and won't back them up-and possibly further angered by the Fed Rom possibly giving away the element of surprise and flying away from the convoy. Feds are angry that their Rom for letting them get ambushed, and not supporting them in said ambush. Romulans are viewed as unreliable and trecharous (since they have no problem attacking their 'allies' when opposite-aligned Romulans are not present)

2) High Command tells one of the captains to stand down. One of the sides (KDF or Federation) is furious for basically backstabbing them ('allied' Romulan refuses to fight, but 'enemy' Romulan attacks) Treaty arrangement ends pretty much immediately.

3) High command tells nobody, Romulans attack each other. Counterproductive in the extreme to Romulan interests. Further weakens the Republic, which is already overextended and can barely protect its own interests. Romulans question D'Tan's sanity and a new leader is quickly put in his place.

4) High Command tells nobody, Romulans *don't* attack each other. As bad as it is when your allies desert you right before your time of need, it's still pretty awful when they (for example) -refuse to shoot at the Mogai on your tail.

Also on this subject, we know further problematic aspects of this 'alliance that need mentioning:

1) There are Republic officers serving on Starfleet and KDF ships.
2) There are KDF and Starfleet officers serving on Repulbic ships.
3) Republic ships *Do* engage ships of the faction they are not aligned with, with intent to destroy or capture.
4) Romulans aligned with the KDF may involve themselves in slavery and piracy against civilians as well.
5) The only episode that addresses any of these obvious problems shows that High Command's communication skills are not reliable in preventing KDF and Fed Romulans from getting into conflict.


Pretty much everything about the 'alliance' seems designed to sabotage the stability of the alliance. It would be one thing if Romulans were only authorized to work with the Federation and KDF against Republic enemies like the Tal Shiar or Elachii, but that's just not how it works, and things like the Officer exchange program complicates things even more.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,300
# 55
07-29-2014, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Alright, lets run a few variants of a scenario and consider what the ramifications would logically be-A Klingon raiding fleet is attacking a Federation convoy-a Romulan ship is part of both fleets:

1) High command is aware and tells both Romulan captains to stay out of the fleet: Klingons are angry because Romulans are cowardly and won't back them up-and possibly further angered by the Fed Rom possibly giving away the element of surprise and flying away from the convoy. Feds are angry that their Rom for letting them get ambushed, and not supporting them in said ambush. Romulans are viewed as unreliable and trecharous (since they have no problem attacking their 'allies' when opposite-aligned Romulans are not present)

2) High Command tells one of the captains to stand down. One of the sides (KDF or Federation) is furious for basically backstabbing them ('allied' Romulan refuses to fight, but 'enemy' Romulan attacks) Treaty arrangement ends pretty much immediately.

3) High command tells nobody, Romulans attack each other. Counterproductive in the extreme to Romulan interests. Further weakens the Republic, which is already overextended and can barely protect its own interests. Romulans question D'Tan's sanity and a new leader is quickly put in his place.

4) High Command tells nobody, Romulans *don't* attack each other. As bad as it is when your allies desert you right before your time of need, it's still pretty awful when they (for example) -refuse to shoot at the Mogai on your tail.

Also on this subject, we know further problematic aspects of this 'alliance that need mentioning:

1) There are Republic officers serving on Starfleet and KDF ships.
2) There are KDF and Starfleet officers serving on Repulbic ships.
3) Republic ships *Do* engage ships of the faction they are not aligned with, with intent to destroy or capture.
4) Romulans aligned with the KDF may involve themselves in slavery and piracy against civilians as well.
5) The only episode that addresses any of these obvious problems shows that High Command's communication skills are not reliable in preventing KDF and Fed Romulans from getting into conflict.


Pretty much everything about the 'alliance' seems designed to sabotage the stability of the alliance. It would be one thing if Romulans were only authorized to work with the Federation and KDF against Republic enemies like the Tal Shiar or Elachii, but that's just not how it works, and things like the Officer exchange program complicates things even more.
Okay the obvious answer to these points is. . . . Uhm. . . Anybody?

Okay, yes. Good points.

Only counterpoint. As Riker did when he was an exchange officer.
"I will fight and die for this ship and crew. But I will not betray my oaths!"

"If you had given me the information, I would have killed you where you stand."

Kdf Romulan fires on Fed convoy. Fed Rom defends convoy to his last breath. Both live and die by their oaths. D'tan reminds the Federation that the high command does not inform him of fleet movements and neither does the federation. Both parties are at war and the Republic let no secrets out. Makes the Romulans look honourable to the Klingons, and modestly trust worthy to the federation.
Now change the squadron makeups so this cannot occur again or there will be a lot of diplomatic fur flying.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,334
# 56
07-31-2014, 09:44 AM
ri'Ranov sihhusn mnean!

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,456
# 57
07-31-2014, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by feiqa View Post
Okay the obvious answer to these points is. . . . Uhm. . . Anybody?

Okay, yes. Good points.

Only counterpoint. As Riker did when he was an exchange officer.
"I will fight and die for this ship and crew. But I will not betray my oaths!"

"If you had given me the information, I would have killed you where you stand."

Kdf Romulan fires on Fed convoy. Fed Rom defends convoy to his last breath. Both live and die by their oaths. D'tan reminds the Federation that the high command does not inform him of fleet movements and neither does the federation. Both parties are at war and the Republic let no secrets out. Makes the Romulans look honourable to the Klingons, and modestly trust worthy to the federation.
Now change the squadron makeups so this cannot occur again or there will be a lot of diplomatic fur flying.
Unfortunately, as I see it, that solution doesn't really help with issues 1, 2 and 4. We'd still have Romulans blowing up, and being blown up by both the KDF and Starfleet. To say nothing of the issues that will inevitably arise due to Romulans serving on the Bridge crews and away teams of both Starfleet and the KDF. Again, my opinion is that the whole alliance thing logically would fail within the first month of its adoption. (to say nothing of the slim probability of it being adopted in the first place).

It's a great example of how the whole alliance system screws with the Republic narrative(despite the contortions Cryptic already forced the Romulans into in order to have the square romulan peg fit into the round hole of the Republic), and why we'd be better off if we had an independent faction status, as unlikely as that seems in the near future. The restrictions imposed narratively and tonally by the Republic's 'alliance' have just been terribly unnatural and plot-hole filled so far-I consider it to be quite the burden for the Republic.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,300
# 58
07-31-2014, 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Unfortunately, as I see it, that solution doesn't really help with issues 1, 2 and 4. We'd still have Romulans blowing up, and being blown up by both the KDF and Starfleet. To say nothing of the issues that will inevitably arise due to Romulans serving on the Bridge crews and away teams of both Starfleet and the KDF. Again, my opinion is that the whole alliance thing logically would fail within the first month of its adoption. (to say nothing of the slim probability of it being adopted in the first place).

It's a great example of how the whole alliance system screws with the Republic narrative(despite the contortions Cryptic already forced the Romulans into in order to have the square romulan peg fit into the round hole of the Republic), and why we'd be better off if we had an independent faction status, as unlikely as that seems in the near future. The restrictions imposed narratively and tonally by the Republic's 'alliance' have just been terribly unnatural and plot-hole filled so far-I consider it to be quite the burden for the Republic.
1 & 2 is an officer exchange program to learn from your allies. Just like the Riker on a BoP I mentioned.
4. Okay this is bad writing. But what they did was hand you the doff system of the faction you went to and not created a proper one for the Romulans to show their ideals instead.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 106
# 59
08-04-2014, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
If the Federation can justify multiple time travel trips to save Earth, IMO justifying a trip back to save Romulus and Remus shouldn't be a problem. The fact that stuff like this never gets done for places like Romulus (or Vulcan, in NuTrek) is a bit of a plot hole, IMO-particularly considering that the Romulans have access to full-fledged Timeships. We would be back to 'bad guy' RSE Romulans though, which Cryptic is dead-set against, so that'll probably never happen, for that reason alone.

'Romulan Maquis' is an interesting concept though, I like it.
To be fair, I do not think that Cryptic is opposed to the idea. If the dev team could have written a story about an elite group of Romulan operatives who sneaked into the Guardian with a small cloaked ship, gone back in time, and stopped the baddies who attacked Hobus; I think they would have.

I think that since Abrams (sp?) has been given carte blanche with the ST universe, CBS is the IP holder who gets to say, yes you can have Romulus back or no you can't. I think STO would have greatly benefited from a time mission that could have restored Romulus at that point in time for players and it would have smoothed out many problems. Of course these are my own opinions.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 469
No one is playing KDF anymore, so lets just let KDF become Romulan Star Empire. We will take in the handful of Klingons and Nausicans lost out in the galaxy.
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