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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,276
# 31
08-24-2014, 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
There are diminishing returns with Accuracy vs. Defense. There's a minimum to hit value...so the formula for to hit is a limit, meaning that you're going to have diminishing returns.
I was talking more about the actual stat on your own ship having a DR formula not just the firing mechanic.

We are all running around on toons that have much more then 55 bonus defense.

I can make an escort stay north of 100 pretty darn near 100% of the time. I was thinking something more like hull resistance where adding more and more starts to be less and less effective. (Ditto for the Acc mechanic as with traits weapon mods consoles ect its possible to stack that up pretty high as well... and Cryptic isn't done releasing more acc and targeting stat items)
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 32
08-24-2014, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I was talking more about the actual stat on your own ship having a DR formula not just the firing mechanic.

We are all running around on toons that have much more then 55 bonus defense.

I can make an escort stay north of 100 pretty darn near 100% of the time. I was thinking something more like hull resistance where adding more and more starts to be less and less effective. (Ditto for the Acc mechanic as with traits weapon mods consoles ect its possible to stack that up pretty high as well... and Cryptic isn't done releasing more acc and targeting stat items)
But that's the thing, that does exist...

There are no diminishing returns on Damage Resistance Rating.
There are no diminishing returns on Bonus Defense.
There are no diminishing returns on Bonus Accuracy.

There are diminishing returns when the DRR is used to calculate Damage Resistance.
There are diminishing returns when the BD is used to calculate To Hit.
There are diminishing returns when the BA is used to calculate Accuracy Overflow.

If I boost my Bonus Defense by 5% and then by another 5%, the second 5% is not giving me the same benefit that the first 5% did. If I boost my Bonus Accuracy (for Accuracy Overflow) by 5% and then by another 5%, again the second 5% is not giving as much as the first.

I can keep stacking +17.5 Rare Mk XI Neuts and I never get less DRR from one - it's only through the conversion to DR that the diminishing returns comes in to play...that's how it is with BA/BD.

Last edited by virusdancer; 08-24-2014 at 06:13 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,233
# 33
08-24-2014, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
My point is the mechanic itself is fine. There is no issue with ACC and Def in the game. In fact the game would be very bad with out them.

The issue as always is Cryptic having a need to willynilly stack stats on everything and everything. Then to top it off take skills with stats on them and throw more and more ways to give them 100% or darn near 100% uptimes.

Considering the Run away defense issue... did we really need a new doff that resets evasive, a great source of on demand +Defense.

The mechanic is good and needed... just like shield resistance is a good mechanic and needed. What isn't needed is Cryptics moronic need to stack stats to the cap... adding so many ways to boost stats that you can easily build to have 100% at cap on things like Shield DR Hull DR and Defense.
nothing in this thread is or has suggested getting rid of either, just changing the basis of them.

with these stats derived from velocity(preferably angular velosity imo), you wouldnt get the defence disparity you mention in parked rom ships which has utterly nothing to do wit the ship itself.

the current mechanic is good, as an idea. but as a mechanic its too inflexible and flawed. and you admit that its flawed when you start talking about how.
if it accounted for turning and angular velocity then it would actually make manouvering more of a skill than just pointing the front of your ship at a target.
Cryptic.
Figure out and address the players path of least resistance to reward. this one thing is THE consistent factor undermining all your efforts. be that crafting, raids or starbase projects.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 34
08-24-2014, 06:18 PM
That they introduced non-movement related buffs to Defense tells us that their concept of Defense is not purely movement related.

A naked build sitting still has -15% Bonus Defense.
A build sitting still where somebody has 9 Maneuvers has +/-0% Bonus Defense.
A build with 9 Maneuvers and Elusive sitting still has +10% Bonus Defense.
And there are a myriad of items that you can add further to boost that Bonus Defense...while sitting still.

They changed Evasive Maneuvers to provide a boost to Bonus Defense based on Speed.

The tooltips for the boost to Bonus Defense for Attack Pattern Omega are incorrect - there's actually a formula for it based on ship type, etc, etc, etc.

Perhaps if they were to base all of the Bonus Defense boosts in a manner similar to what was done with EM - then it would tie all the Bonus Defense back into actual movement.

A target sitting still would be at -15% Bonus Defense...because at 0 speed none of the boosts would apply.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,276
# 35
08-24-2014, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
nothing in this thread is or has suggested getting rid of either, just changing the basis of them.

with these stats derived from velocity(preferably angular velosity imo), you wouldnt get the defence disparity you mention in parked rom ships which has utterly nothing to do wit the ship itself.

the current mechanic is good, as an idea. but as a mechanic its too inflexible and flawed. and you admit that its flawed when you start talking about how.
if it accounted for turning and angular velocity then it would actually make manouvering more of a skill than just pointing the front of your ship at a target.
I hear what you are saying.

I also hear what you are saying VD.

I think what I am more meaning is the DR forumulas are to blame. They are not harsh enough. There is also no cap on defense that I can see. With The DR on hull resists it is harsh enough that it becomes almost pointless to try and boost your hull resist further after a point. That doesn't happen with Defense... and perhaps it should.

My main issue with the idea of velocity effecting ACC... is simple. The idea of an escort with out a cloak would die instantly the second something like that was added. The best practice would be to cloak so you could park and unload a vape... then run away and repeat. If a velocity degrading ACC was introduced actual escorts would become obsolete. We go back in time 6 months to vaper online. imo
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 324
# 36
08-24-2014, 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
with these stats derived from velocity(preferably angular velosity imo), you wouldnt get the defence disparity you mention in parked rom ships which has utterly nothing to do wit the ship itself.
Wrong. Because if that where the case you could, as a vaper (most likely in a rom ship), just decloak, tractor and blow your target to oblivion in a much less risky way if such a mechanic would be implemented. The problem is the cloaking mechanic and balancing the attractiveness of it compared to persistent escorts.
With one ship type you would circumvent the whole mechanic and guess what people will be using then? Sure there are counters to being tractored, but a vape attempt is far less predictable then a timed alpha by a non-cloaking escort.

I'd suggest reducing the base defence bonus on escorts a little. What is it right now? A 15% bonus? Make that maybe 7% to 10%.
I also like VD's suggestion. No target should have any bonus defence at 0 movement speed. It's funny to actually imagine that.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 37
08-24-2014, 06:56 PM
Okay, I'm off to watch three hours of TV (The Last Ship, Falling Skies, and The Strain)...but before I go, lol, I can't help picturing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1j9dHh5v8w

:while thinking about how Sub BOFFs help boost a ship's defense.

Just picture the BOFFs on the bridge of the ship, am I right?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,176
# 38
08-24-2014, 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
very simple explanation for that.
agility is a multiplier for both offence and defence at the same time. this was something obviously completly ignored or misunderstood be the devs.
resulting in the misconceived mess we have now. when the spacewhales are teh ships that need their heals just to live.

of course a tank is going to be the weakest link. every school kid knows that the fattie that gets its face kicked in every day, is losing.

but regardless, your invoking a2b and the symptoms around that, is admission that the tank/heal/dps system is an utter failure.
AND, admission that, you know it is an utter failure.
sigh, so close. it would be an utter failure, but its not because AtB is there to make up the speed difference a substantial amount. there is no solution more elegant and selectively buffs slow tac ships wile not buffing sci ships and healers too, its why the devs need to leave it the hell alone. AtB ships fit perfectly were they are. none are too good, and just about everything can be made good enough with it.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 08-24-2014 at 07:17 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,176
# 39
08-24-2014, 07:16 PM
accuracy and evasion in a star trek setting should actually be handled in a star trek way. keep in mind that the computers on these ships have processors computing within warp fields, so it can process at speeds beyond whats physically possible. nothing moving at sublight should be missed because the computer miss calculated the shot.

beams move at approximately c, fired from an array accuracy really shouldn't be a factor. only really believable that cannons can miss, they move much slower, its actually possible for a ship at sublight to dodge. the possibility for missing is much more likely due to manual control human error, limitations in the weapon bank's ability to swivel sufficiently, and most of all sensor interference projected by your ship.


THAT should determine defense score, not movement FFS. specing varoius types of sensors should be the skill that determains your acc and def, not relegated to just exploit vs cloaked ships.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 08-24-2014 at 07:32 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,233
# 40
08-24-2014, 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freenos85 View Post
Wrong. Because if that where the case you could, as a vaper (most likely in a rom ship), just decloak, tractor and blow your target to oblivion in a much less risky way if such a mechanic would be implemented. The problem is the cloaking mechanic and balancing the attractiveness of it compared to persistent escorts.
actually, with an angular velocity based system, to get the most out of that, the attacker would need to park too. leaving their own defence value at zero.

its also conflating the poor way tractor beams work in this game that results in shuttles being able to lock down carriers.

Quote:
With one ship type you would circumvent the whole mechanic and guess what people will be using then? Sure there are counters to being tractored, but a vape attempt is far less predictable then a timed alpha by a non-cloaking escort.
for this to work they would need a more sensable system than you kroozer so you move liek cold treacle".

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
sigh, so close. it would be an utter failure, but its not because AtB is there to make up the speed difference a substantial amount. there is no solution more elegant and selectively buffs slow tac ships wile not buffing sci ships and healers too, its why the devs need to leave it the hell alone. AtB ships fit perfectly were they are. none are too good, and just about everything can be made good enough with it.
thats a massively rose tinted view of a2b.
tell me, how many doffs for individual abilities would you need to slot to get what a2b gets?
the beam power doffs
the tt doffs
the eptx cd doffs
the eptx boonus power doffs
etc etc
all that from one ability is not 'elegant' its a 'cudgel'.

its like taking apO and mixing eptE eptW and several other abilities into it.(besides a2id and PH, but thats yet another story...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
accuracy and evasion in a star trek setting should actually be handled in a star trek way. keep in mind that the computers on these ships have processors computing within warp fields, so it can process at speeds beyond whats physically possible. nothing moving at sublight should be missed because the computer miss calculated the shot.

beams move at approximately c, fired from an array accuracy really shouldn't be a factor. only really believable that cannons can miss, they move a much slower, are actually possible for a ship at sublight to dodge. the possibility for missing is much more likely due to manual control human error, limitations in the weapon bank's ability to swivel sufficiently, and most of all sensor interference projected by your ship.


THAT should determine defense score, not movement FFS. specing varoius types of sensors should be the skill that determains your acc and def, not relegated to just exploit vs cloaked ships.
in a startrek way? that would mean firing from tens of thousands of kilometers, while moving at up to 30% of c. if not ftl.
even with tachyonic weapons and quantum computing you would still have travel time which means time to evade.

and other than thaleron & triC weapons effecting subspace, i havnt heard of singularity weapons being used in trek... though that would explain the q blowing up stars.

so, yes, movement would determine evasive stats, even in star trek, even if putting a lot of effort into active ecm to fool sensors would play a part.
Cryptic.
Figure out and address the players path of least resistance to reward. this one thing is THE consistent factor undermining all your efforts. be that crafting, raids or starbase projects.
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