Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
02-02-2010, 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harkonis View Post
they work fine. stop trying to use your t4 cruiser like your t1-3 cruisers, it's a different beast but it works fine. My fleetmate has been exceptionally effective with one in a couple different configurations and he is deadly whether you are in front of him, behind him, or god forbid you go to the side of him where you melt. He pops aux batteries or uses evasive manuevers if a turn HAS to be done more quickly, but other than that he's had no problems.

He runs with the EPS consoles and switches to full aux quickly as well when needed.
The main problen in maneuverng out of combat to grab loot, etc. If you're saying he doesn't mind turning like a whale taking five minutes every time he tries to grab a drop, then fine. Hell if you try T4 cruisers, maybe you won't be able to stand them for their turn rate.

Just because your fleetmate doesn't mind them, doesn't make them "fine".
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# 32
02-02-2010, 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
A turn rate of 7 or 8 is not "agile" for top tier cruiser. Saying "go pick science vessel" is tantamount to admitting that cruisers are broken and should not be equal to other classes.

Here's a great comparison: The Negh'Var has a turn rate of 9 and 2500 crew so it is practically the most durable cruiser in the game. It's also a tier higher than the Galaxy class. If you boosted the Galaxy's turning rate to 7, it would still be out-turned by every Klingon ship in the game. This would not be overpowered.
We're talking base turn rate here. A fact that most people who argue this point care to gloss over. There are three captaincy skills that in turn buff your turning among other things. I've flown around in a T4 before, so I know first hand how slow it is. But if you ask me, the reason people are arguing about T4 and not T5, is because they don't want to have to put points into exploration cruiser captain.

Now I understand your point about the Negh'Var being significantly more powerful, but this just means that it was hastily produced and is more likely to see the nerf bat than Exploration Cruisers to see a buff in this respect. Just because the Negh'Var could be considered more durable in comparison to any Starfleet Cruiser doesn't disqualify it from comparison to other Starfleet ships classes. When the results come back that it is indeed too powerful, expect a "balancing pass."

Perhaps Fed Cruisers should be buffed in relation to their Klingon counterparts, but that has never been my argument against additional turn-rate being necessary. I'm speaking in reference to other Fed ships. But again, I reiterate:
Quote:
the reason people are arguing about T4 and not T5, is because they don't want to have to put points into exploration cruiser captain.
Edit: Clarity
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
02-02-2010, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CreativePhobia
We're talking base turn rate here. A fact that most people who argue this point care to gloss over. There are three captaincy skills that in turn buff your turning among other things. I've flown around in a T4 before, so I know first hand how slow it is. But if you ask me, the reason people are about T4 and not T5, is because they don't want to have to put points into exploration cruiser captain.

Now I understand your point about the Negh'Var being significantly more powerful, but this just means that it was hastily produced and is more likely to see the nerf bat than Exploration Cruisers to see a buff in this respect. Just because the Negh'Var could be considered more durable in comparison to any Starfleet Cruiser doesn't disqualify it from comparison to other Starfleet ships classes. When the results come back that it is indeed too powerful, expect a "balancing pass."

Perhaps Fed Cruisers should be buffed in relation to their Klingon counterparts, but that has never been my argument for not feeling additional turn-rate is necessary. I'm speaking in reference to other Fed ships. But again, I reitterate:
Okay, so with max points in Exploration cruiser captain, how fast does it make the tier 4 turn? I hope you realise that if it's a % increase, it won't make much of a difference.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting a boost to make the Tier 4 better than the Negh'Var or Vor'cha (which it really should be compared to). I'm suggesting a 2 point increase in turn rate. I think the Tier 5 cruisers should also have a turn rate of 7.

Here's another way of looking at it. The tiny little tier 2 Constitution class has a slower base turn rate than the Negh'Var. Also as far as I can tell, Klingon cruisers can fit cannons and arrays as they like. This is BROKEN.

To even approach a balance, all Klingon cruisers need a nerf, and all fed cruisers need a boost.
Lt. Commander
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# 34
02-02-2010, 10:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Okay, so with max points in Exploration cruiser captain, how fast does it make the tier 4 turn? I hope you realise that if it's a % increase, it won't make much of a difference.
Your guess is as good as mine as to the final values. According to Al Rivera's article on skill function, not everything scales in a direct +% value based on the actual # (In this case +52). He also said that stacking skills might see different total values based on how much is being added.

Point wise, we're talking 18+30+52 = 100. I seriously doubt that's 100%, and yes I aknowledge that even if it is, the turn rate is only going to be modified to 12. Let's assume this is the case for the sake of argument, however.

When you consider that players without points Exploration Cruiser Captain would be looking at a value of 48 for their T4 ship, which in our case equates to a 48% modification, we're looking at a total value of 9 turn rate instead of 12. So the discrepancy is 3 points. This is still pitifully low compared to other ships, especially if they're being further modified by the same percentages. But, the discrepancy of 3 points is still enough to base a whole argument comparing the Negh'Var to Exploration cruisers, isn't it?
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 35
02-02-2010, 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CreativePhobia
Not this again.

No. You're asking Cryptic to make the durable class agile as well. Isn't going to happen, because if it does, there's no reason to pick any other ship. Suck it up or pick a science vessel like the rest of the whiners.
I don't want to be agile, I want to be MOBILE. I'm not asking for escort or even science mobility, give me the same turn speed as my hvy cruiser and that would be fine.
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# 36
02-02-2010, 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by macallen View Post
I don't want to be agile, I want to be MOBILE. I'm not asking for escort or even science mobility, give me the same turn speed as my hvy cruiser and that would be fine.
I apologize for coming off a bit harsh to begin with, but there have been so many complaint threads about this which are basically knee-jerk reaction demands to over-buff exploration cruisers. Believe me when I say that I would not mind a buff to them considering that Cruiser is my class of choice. However, I still feel that the changes are largely unnecessary.

The points about balance when compared to Klingon ships does bring up a balance issue greater than just one tier of Fed cruisers, though. I have no doubt that there will be balancing passes to come, and that Cryptic is very hesitant to improve the turn rate on cruisers too much, less they become too relied upon for broadsiding (Different topic entirely, though).

It would be nice if we were better informed about how skill values directly impacted overall performance without attempting to extrapolate the values by dealing with the final numbers. (By comparing them with the base numbers of things like top speed which can actually be measured, for example.) That would make the balance issue much clearer when comparing a kitted out ship of any tier to its counterparts. Unfortunately, a lot of the arguments right now (including my own) are more based upon how the ship feels.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
02-02-2010, 11:19 PM
I haven't tested T4 cruisers either, but I've been avoiding taking cruisers simply because there's the mighty Federation Battle Pig (aka Galaxy Cruiser) waiting to be bored out of my mind at. How much does the turn time change with Evasive Maneuvers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by macallen View Post
I've plenty of power, and don't mind adding to Aux, but if the difference between 100% and 0% is not significant (i.e. I can't measure it at all in game), it's pointless. If I "transfer all power to the lateral thrusters", I want to TURN!!! I don't want to fly faster, I want to turn faster.

And they can't quote inertia to me because I can go from 0 to full impulse in seconds and slam into another ship with ramming speed, going from 0 to 100% and then to 0 in seconds without turning my crew into goo on the walls, so I should be able to do similar things turning.

"Helm officer, bring the nose around NOW!"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 38
02-02-2010, 11:21 PM
OK, grabbed a stopwatch, went to Sol, went to the shipyard and did some tests.

Perfectly still, nose touching a space dock, I turned in place and had 2 people with stop watches. The average time in 3 tests it took to turn 360 degrees is 1 min, 57.6 seconds. We did 3 tests with 108 Aux and 3 with 48 Aux, the turn speed was identical.

I then added a +25% turn speed engineering console and did the test again.

In 3 tests, the time it took to turn 360 degrees was...1 min, 57.6 seconds. +25% consoles do absolutely nothing to my turn speed when sitting still.

Then, on a hunch, I went full throttle (not full impulse) and did the tests again. 3 tests with each Aux, and 3 tests with the +25% turn rate console.

Turning 360 at max (non full impulse velocity):

With 48 Aux: 57 seconds
With 108 Aux: 49 seconds
With 48 Aux and +25% turn rate console: 57 seconds

What did I learn?
I owe the gentleman above an apology, Aux does help a little, at the extremes.
Turn rate consoles do not work. (/bugged this)
My ship takes a full minute just to turn around, which makes me sad.

As a joke, I asked my friend to do the same tests in his T3 escort. With 35 Aux, he makes the same turn at full speed (non full impulse) in 17 seconds.

I'm not asking for 17 seconds. I'd be happy with 30. I don't want to be faster than an escort. I don't even want to be as fast, or nearly as fast. I just want to turn faster than the seasons do.

And it's heartless and cruel to put consoles in the game that give the illusion of turn speed increases but don't actually work. It's like they're laughing at us while we plod about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
02-02-2010, 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
This isn't about canon or game balance. If it's not fun to play a T4 Cruiser (and believe me, it's not), it should be fixed. You can nerf something else about them if you really want to, but right now it's an exercise in frustration to even fly the ship at all.

Fun has to come first in a video game.
Well, Canon would help. The Galaxy Class Enterprise D made some incredible narrow and swift 180s in its days, FAR faster than 12 seconds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
02-02-2010, 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnknownXV View Post
Well, Canon would help. The Galaxy Class Enterprise D made some incredible narrow and swift 180s in its days, FAR faster than 12 seconds.
The Ent D also died to a Klingon BOP after a few torpedo shots to the hull while barely firing back. You don't want to follow canon too closely...
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