Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-02-2010, 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orndarastrix
The way DPS works, both work out the same.
they dont work out the same.. dps is an average of damage over time.. base+ is a single shot damage rating.

if say base is 100 and the modifier is +20

100 +20 = 120 dmg per single shot.. depending on rate of fire, dps could end up being less than 100..

since cryptic announced the + was a percentage..

100 +20% = 105 dmg per shot, now take into account the rate of fire over time and dps could be less than the rated base+ dmg

we can also look at a weapon that does 100 dmg, but has a dps rating of 83 dps.. those numbers are not the same.. other things that dont modify weapon dmg may be modifying weapon rate of fire that we just dont know about
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-02-2010, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkDrgn
they dont work out the same.. dps is an average of damage over time.. base+ is a single shot damage rating.

if say base is 100 and the modifier is +20

100 +20 = 120 dmg per single shot.. depending on rate of fire, dps could end up being less than 100..

since cryptic announced the + was a percentage..

100 +20% = 105 dmg per shot, now take into account the rate of fire over time and dps could be less than the rated base+ dmg

we can also look at a weapon that does 100 dmg, but has a dps rating of 83 dps.. those numbers are not the same.. other things that dont modify weapon dmg may be modifying weapon rate of fire that we just dont know about
First off, +20% of 100 is 120, not 105.

DPS is Damage/second (time).

DPS = Damage / Time.

Due to the nature of multiplication and division, both of these operations result in the same number:

DPS = (Damage * Multiplier) / Time, DPS = (Damage / Time) * Multiplier

Lets go with your example. 100 is Damage, 1.2 is the multiplier, and 1.5 is the time (recharge time of Heavy Cannons)

DPS = (100 * 1.2) / 1.5 = 120 / 1.5 = 80. DPS = (100/1.5) * 1.2 = 6.66 * 1.2 = 80
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-02-2010, 08:14 PM
Your maths is flawed (or the way the game handles % maths is flawed..). As you are trying to add base %'s..

ie 30% + 18% = 48% .. ie 1.48

The way the game works it, based on your maths above of 1.354 bonus instead of 1.48.. however, what seems to be happening is.. game takes biggest bonus, then addes the lower bonus to that as a % of the bigger bonus..

IE 30% + 18% = 35.4%.. ie 1.354

18% of 30% = 5.4%
30% + 5.4% = 35.4%

iirc.. it's close to exactly the same way as WoW handles same bonuses applying to same thing.. rather than flat % increase, it add's the %'s based from highest to lowest.. I can't remember the proper term for this.. but seems to be how the game is dealing with it.

edit: and b4 someone comments "but the dev's said it was X"... I know that, I read that. however, based upon the #'s the OP posted.. this is the way the game maths seems to be dealing with it.. rather than additing the %'s together, it's applying the smaller % to the larger then adding that result to the larger (ie (30% * 18%) + 30% = 35.4% = total bonus%)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-02-2010, 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamatsu View Post
Your maths is flawed (or the way the game handles % maths is flawed..). As you are trying to add base %'s..

ie 30% + 18% = 48% .. ie 1.48

The way the game works it, based on your maths above of 1.354 bonus instead of 1.48.. however, what seems to be happening is.. game takes biggest bonus, then addes the lower bonus to that as a % of the bigger bonus..

IE 30% + 18% = 35.4%.. ie 1.354

18% of 30% = 5.4%
30% + 5.4% = 35.4%

iirc.. it's close to exactly the same way as WoW handles same bonuses applying to same thing.. rather than flat % increase, it add's the %'s based from highest to lowest.. I can't remember the proper term for this.. but seems to be how the game is dealing with it.
Its close to how WoW handles it, but not quite. WoW's multiplicative addition of percentages works as follows:
100% + (30% of 100%) = 130% + (18% of 70%) = 142.6%

Al Rivera specificallly added the percentages in his news post, which is how the system should function in-game, else he is falsely advertising the skill system.

The current way the system functions, if it is indeed as you say above, is broken because it essentially means the skills you purchase early in the game become nigh-on worthless once you access the stronger skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-02-2010, 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orndarastrix
Its close to how WoW handles it, but not quite. WoW's multiplicative addition of percentages works as follows:
100% + (30% of 100%) = 130% + (18% of 70%) = 142.6%

Al Rivera specificallly added the percentages in his news post, which is how the system should function in-game, else he is falsely advertising the skill system.

The current way the system functions, if it is indeed as you say above, is broken because it essentially means the skills you purchase early in the game become nigh-on worthless once you access the stronger skills.
Which is why people were a bit peeved when they heard that skill points were going to be capped - In the end you have to be very very selective.. if you use one of the skill calculators, you can see how you can really screw up long term plans if you don't almost plan exactly the way you want to go forward for each box.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-03-2010, 02:45 PM
The problem is that all the above math, including the developer's math, is wrong.

For example:
Take a Quantum torpedo Mk 4 base damage (since torpedo launchers don't depend on power, that's less math) which does 2008 base damage. It's quoted damage base after having 9 skill points in Starship Projectile Weapons Training and 9 skill points in Starship Torpedo Weaons is....2703.

Taking the developer's way of math:
2008 * 1.48 = 2971.84 damage

Taking the lolWoW's way of additive multiplication quoted from Orndarastrix:
2008 * 1.426 = 2863.408

Taking the math from the OP:
2008 * 1.354 = 2718.832


However the true percentage of damage increase is actually 134.61155% (2703 / 2008), unto which case there is no possible way that my brain can think of currently where this adds up in any fashion.


Personally, I prefer how they had the system about a week ago (before whatever patch they applied changed it) because I had a spreadsheet that would tell you exactly how much damage a weapon, with modules, would be doing based on the points you had and it was on the money precise.

Originally the math was added like the Dev said but whatever system they switched to since then is no where near what they are advertising.
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