Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
02-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Wow... I guess that's as good an explaination as any for making the game not feel very much like space at all.

Size in space has no relationship at all. For the record the spaceshuttle, a ship we have actually made can pitch, yaw and roll to it's heart's content in space. This ship is only a couple thousand years less advanced than a starship.

As for never seeing a ship upside down in Startrek I ask how you know it wasn't upside down? As far as I know spacial orientation in Space is purely subjective. I seem to remember quite clearly an episode in Voyager where the Delta Flier did all sorts of manuevers.

Anyway, no reason to beat a dead horse. We never say people respawn in the series or zone to a new instance or poop but....

This was a discussion I walked in on at Gamestop yesterday morning before I posted this last night and I saw 2 guys put the game back on the shelf based on just this one issue. Games that don't feel immersive won't keep many of the people who play it. This is a very silly design element but it probably has allot to do with the engine not really being designed for a space game. We will see what impact it has on the game. It would have been a game breaker for me had I known before I purchased it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
02-03-2010, 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinerath View Post
here is my 2 pennies, take or leave.


Yes, it would be nice to go straight up and down. Problem. And here comes the physics of it all again. All thrusters on Star Trek vessels are on the back. And impluse, warp everything goes straight behind the ship. So unless they put in an animation or design a ship to pull a Harrier you are going to have to go at an angle. Now the flip side is that there could be manuevering thrusters on all side fo the hull for docking and stuff like that but it would be ten times faster to jsut fly in a big circle then to move up at 1km/hour.

all I can say is thank god the phaser can fire straight up and in 250 degree angles so while I am moving in a circle I am still ripping the shields off my enemy.
Perhaps you should watch Wrath of Khan... The Enterprise went straight up and down and did it quickly
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
02-03-2010, 04:17 PM
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
02-03-2010, 04:36 PM
Crow_Splat is dead on. The game is not realistic at all, but it is totally accurate to the kind of combat you see all the time in TV shows.

I find it particularly funny that people keep posting links (well, "keep" is a strong word, but I've seen it at least twice now in these threads) to compilations of Star Trek space battles, and pointing at some 3-second segment where the Defiant does a loop-the-loop or the ship flies straight up... conveniently ignoring the other 5 or so minutes of the video, where giant fleets all fly at each other on matching orientations, never tilt too steeply to the side, and sit on multiple Z-levels but never go more than 45 degrees "up" or "down". Somehow 2% of the video outweighs the other 98%. I don't get it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
02-03-2010, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinerath View Post
here is my 2 pennies, take or leave.


Yes, it would be nice to go straight up and down. Problem. And here comes the physics of it all again. All thrusters on Star Trek vessels are on the back. And impluse, warp everything goes straight behind the ship. So unless they put in an animation or design a ship to pull a Harrier you are going to have to go at an angle. Now the flip side is that there could be manuevering thrusters on all side fo the hull for docking and stuff like that but it would be ten times faster to jsut fly in a big circle then to move up at 1km/hour.

all I can say is thank god the phaser can fire straight up and in 250 degree angles so while I am moving in a circle I am still ripping the shields off my enemy.

actually, there are manuvering thrusters throughout the ship not just in the rear :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
02-03-2010, 04:57 PM
No nonono NO. We're not starting this again.

The ships move the way they do so that it appeals to a wider group of people who might not have the same spectacular spacial sense that most of us on these forums do and also to keep it in line with the look of the ship battles in Star Trek. I've been in many huge long debates like this and it just gets crazy.

The example I like to use is when a NASA aerospace engineer who was a gamer came onto these forums and asked if orbitls were realistic or not. He said it totally broke immersion for him that when you stopped moving in space you didn't fall towards the planet. He wanted the fun of flying around a planet and trying to work yourself into a proper orbit because to him it was common sense and easy...but not too much fun for the rest of us here.

The current motion model we have doesn't make sense, but neither does a lot of the science in star trek and a lot of the other game mechanics that are currently in place. It's annoying sometimes but I'd rather see it than realistic space motion with galaxy class starships zipping sideways through space and having realistic newtonian physics.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
02-03-2010, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinerath View Post
here is my 2 pennies, take or leave.


Yes, it would be nice to go straight up and down. Problem. And here comes the physics of it all again. All thrusters on Star Trek vessels are on the back. And impluse, warp everything goes straight behind the ship. So unless they put in an animation or design a ship to pull a Harrier you are going to have to go at an angle. Now the flip side is that there could be manuevering thrusters on all side fo the hull for docking and stuff like that but it would be ten times faster to jsut fly in a big circle then to move up at 1km/hour.

all I can say is thank god the phaser can fire straight up and in 250 degree angles so while I am moving in a circle I am still ripping the shields off my enemy.
Actually, all "Trek" ships have RCS (Reaction Control Thrusters) in various locations around the ship. That's how they turn when not moving forward. And watch "Wrath of Khan". In the nebula, Kirk orders the Enterprise to go straight down, z-minus 5000 meters. Even though they the ability to 'pull a loop" or whatever, all ships fly through space aligned to the galactic plane (that's the Star Trek producers' excuse, not mine). So up and down in space is basically the same for everyone.

While I agree that being able to fly in any direction would be great for many of us, it would be very difficult for the vast majority of players. However, I do think that there should be a command for moving on the Z-axis. In Champions Online and City of Heroes, there are commands for going straight up and down... why not here? Come on, Crypitc, you can do it! We believe in you!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
02-03-2010, 05:02 PM
Also I forgot to mention the look. It's much more pleasing to the eye to see ships on relativly the same plane and have a sense of up/down. Maybe not for a lot of people but most people enjoy the aesthetics of it. Which is another reason that you see this in the shows, even in Voyager where they used CG and there was NO excuse other than the cinematic feel of it to have ships always the same orientation
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49 no way
02-03-2010, 05:06 PM
it would make the game too disorienting, without adding much to the experience
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
02-03-2010, 05:19 PM
What is also inconvenient, is that beam boats can happily be above or below their target and operate to full effectiveness, where as torp boats and gun boats must come in from the sides. Attacking from above is an impossibility unless you corkscrew because of the tight attack angles. The amount of times I was in a position to attack Down onto a target but have to fly aaaaallll the way out, turn around, and fly aaaalll the way back, instead of just dropping a torp on the target's head to watch it go pop.
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