Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
02-04-2010, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannigan
anywho we now return this thread to it's regularly scheduled topic.
We are on-topic, we're discussing traditional MMOs vs. other kinds of MMO.

And this game is not one of the traditional ones.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
02-04-2010, 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfhedjinn View Post
Except that doesn't apply to STO. Players have no effect on the game world, if they do it is erased when they zone.

By the way, your discription even fits games like Diablo II multiplayer. I am guessing you wouldn't call that an MMO.
Whether or not it's an MMO is a different question as to whether or not it's persistent. If the D2MP gameworld exists all the time then it is persistent. But can it have hundreds or thousands of players in it simultaneously? That's another requirement of "MMO".

Quote:
I don't even call WoW a traditional MMORPG. It retains quite a few elements of a persistent world, but as you pointed out its dungeons are instanced. However, why do you compare this game to WoW to make your point? That just makes my point for me, because this entire game is instanced, at least in WoW it is just limited to dungeons and raids.
I refer to WoW because it has really become the standard for "traditional MMO". Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant; it's the top dog the put MMOs into the mainstream, so it'll be the one defining what MMO means to the masses.

Quote:
When I am on WoW doing non-dungeon content I am either socialising, farming crafting materials, or questing. None of this is done in an instance and all of it is effected directly by other players, and I still don't go so far as to say WoW is "traditional".
Socializing isn't instanced in STO; channels either exist across the game (Fleet, other) or by zone- not by instance of zones, so that's a non-issue.

Farming materials may or may not be affected by other players. In missions instances can be shared, and in exploration sector space where items can be farmed there can be other players. Granted, in exploration (non-sector) space you're typically alone and can farm without interference, but even WoW allows you to farm materials in instances you're in alone, too- in fact instances are often the best place to farm certain herbs, ores, and pretty much all cloths.

With missions, again, many of them have a chance of putting you in an instance with another player. I've had this happen with patrol and episode missions both.

Quote:
In STO everything you do is done as part of an instance, and if you want to completely bypass the effect other players have on your world, you just turn off open grouping. It is, in my mind, a co-operative RPG that you essentially play like a single player game unless you want to interact with others.
Open grouping, as I understand it, doesn't prevent multiple people being put in the same instance- it just makes it so you're not automatically put into a team together. Though I could be wrong. Even if I am, though, it's enabled by default. If you choose to go it alone you can't very well use it to justify a claim that everything you do you do alone.

Quote:
In WoW I can not stop someone competing against me for spawns and resources, players can kill me anywhere if I am on a PvP server or PvP flagged on a PvE server, and I can not stop someone entering the zone I am in unless I specifically go in a dungeon. In STO I can choose to minimize the chat box, toggle /lfg off, and it's like I am playing a single-player game. Co-operative.
If that's how you choose to play it then that's how you choose to play it. You don't have to.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
02-04-2010, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Whether or not it's an MMO is a different question as to whether or not it's persistent. If the D2MP gameworld exists all the time then it is persistent. But can it have hundreds or thousands of players in it simultaneously? That's another requirement of "MMO".
You seem to be confused. I never said it's not an MMO, I said it's not a "traditional MMO".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
I refer to WoW because it has really become the standard for "traditional MMO". Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant; it's the top dog the put MMOs into the mainstream, so it'll be the one defining what MMO means to the masses.
You're saying a pretty recent MMO can define "traditional MMO"? Seriously, I don't even understand how you can come to this conclusion. Most people who criticise WoW do so exactly because it changed the way all MMOs since have done things.

While I do play WoW, and I think it retains some elements of traditional MMOs, I wouldn't call it a traditional MMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Socializing isn't instanced in STO; channels either exist across the game (Fleet, other) or by zone- not by instance of zones, so that's a non-issue.
The chat box is not the be-all and end-all of socialising. If people want to hang out together or even role-play in this game they are going to have to arrange to meet up in a specific instance and initiate contact themselves, as opposed to in open-world MMOs where socialising is spontaneous and fluid.

And I don't even see people socialising at all in this game, for the record.

Despite most WoW players running around like headless chickens, and not having the time to socialise because they need their epix, socialising still happens because everybody is in the same place when they're in towns and they use local chat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Farming materials may or may not be affected by other players. In missions instances can be shared, and in exploration sector space where items can be farmed there can be other players. Granted, in exploration (non-sector) space you're typically alone and can farm without interference, but even WoW allows you to farm materials in instances you're in alone, too- in fact instances are often the best place to farm certain herbs, ores, and pretty much all cloths.
And again I repeat that WoW is not exactly a traditional MMO. Yes you can farm certain things in instances (but since I am a miner + jewelcrafter in WoW instances aren't the best for me), but even so I'd still prefer doing it in the open world because I like knowing I might run in to other people. Running in to other people and interacting with them being a part of traditional MMOs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
With missions, again, many of them have a chance of putting you in an instance with another player. I've had this happen with patrol and episode missions both.
Patrol missions are essentially mini fleet actions, normal missions will not group you if you turn the option off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Open grouping, as I understand it, doesn't prevent multiple people being put in the same instance- it just makes it so you're not automatically put into a team together. Though I could be wrong. Even if I am, though, it's enabled by default. If you choose to go it alone you can't very well use it to justify a claim that everything you do you do alone.

If that's how you choose to play it then that's how you choose to play it. You don't have to.
Where did I claim that everything I do in this game, I do alone? Or that you have to? Nowhere. All I said was that should I choose to, I could turn off grouping and basically play almost the entire game on my own, and that's why I consider it a co-operative MMORPG as opposed to a traditional MMORPG. In the latter, player interaction is basically unavoidable.

Also, I repeat for your benefit: I have nothing against non-traditional MMOs, sometimes I out-right prefer playing them, but the topic is asking whether or not this game is a traditional MMO. I consider it a co-operative MMO as opposed to a traditional one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
02-04-2010, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjooee93 View Post
Unfortunately I missed the beta's, so I wasn't able to join in all the fun and I can't really buy the retail version of this game right now because my desktop isn't up to snuff (I'll be getting a new one soon, and then buy STO) but I'm just wondering if this game is your traditional MMO? I mean does it have classes? Can you be a war-officer? or a scientist/medic or something like that? Is there levels?
Despite some preview info and stuff on the website the classic MMORPG roles are not supported, so there isn't really a tank (no threat modifier, at least not in space), healer (healing abilities are limited by recharge times) or damage dealer (damage is not strictly tied to ship or officer type). The ship type you're commanding and which officer you are only affect playstyle.

There are levels though that work almost the same way as in classic MMORPGs.

Also, the other biggest difference to classic MMORPGs is that you don't really have a character, your character is basically the combination of your toon, your bridge officers and your ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
02-04-2010, 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfhedjinn View Post
You seem to be confused. I never said it's not an MMO, I said it's not a "traditional MMO".
Eh? You asked if Diablo 2 Multiplayer should be an "MMO". I was responding to that.

Quote:
You're saying a pretty recent MMO can define "traditional MMO"? Seriously, I don't even understand how you can come to this conclusion. Most people who criticise WoW do so exactly because it changed the way MMOs did things since it was launched.

While I do play WoW, and I think it retains some elements of traditional MMOs, I wouldn't call it a traditional MMO.
It might be "recent" but it was the one that introduced a lot of people to that type of game; it's the one that made MMO a household name, so to speak. Sorry, but that's how it is. You needn't look at further than its constant use as a point of comparison to find evidence it's established itself as the industry standard.

Quote:
The chat box is not the be-all and end-all of socialising. If people want to hang out together or even role-play in this game they are going to have to arrange to meet up in a specific instance and initiate contact themselves. And I don't see people hanging out at all in this game.

Despite most WoW players running around like headless chickens, and not having the time to socialise because they need their epix, socialising still happens because everybody is in the same place when they're in towns and they use local chat.
That can still happen. It's simply less likely. And it's entirely possible Cryptic will be adding social zones that have increased instance population caps, so to help in this goal- they've made statements to that effect.

Quote:
And again I repeat that WoW is not exactly a traditional RPG, yes you can farm certain things in instances (but since I am a miner + jewelcrafter in WoW instances aren't the best for me), but even so I'd still prefer doing it in the open world because I like knowing I might run in to other people. Running in to other people and interacting with them being a part of traditional MMOs.
Which can still happen- it's just less likely. There are pros and cons to this system. A con is that it's less likely to bump into people, the pro is that you don't bump into people who get to your node a split second before you do.

Quote:
Patrol missions are essentially mini fleet actions, missions will not group you if you turn the option off.
That sentence doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that if you turn auto-group off, you'll go into fleet actions by yourself? If you're still referring to being put in a team automatically... that's different than being put in the same instance.

Quote:
Where did I claim that everything I do in this game, I do alone? Or that you have to? Nowhere. All I said was that should I choose to, I could turn off grouping and basically play almost the entire game on my own, and that's why I consider it a co-operative MMORPG as opposed to a traditional MMORPG. In the latter, player interaction is basically unavoidable.
You're entire argument is about how your not being affected by other players makes this an "nontraditional" MMORPG. Then you went on to say what you could actively change to make it so you do things alone.

You're making a case for a negative part of the game then saying what a player can do to make it even more pronounced. That just seems an odd strategy. If the player wants interaction with others, they simply wouldn't do that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
02-04-2010, 01:38 PM
Yes, this as all the trappings of a tradition MMORPG.

Tactical = DPS class
Engineering = Tank
Science = CC/Healing

Escort Ship = DPS
Cruiser = Tank
Science = CC/Healing

This is mitigated some since they have Bridge officers are from each type. So its like having primary and secondary class in ship combat.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
02-04-2010, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Eh? You asked if Diablo 2 Multiplayer should be an "MMO". I was responding to that.
My bad, I misunderstood. Diablo II is not an MMO, that's why I brought it up, because it still seemed to fit your definition of a persistent world (your character, items, etc. still being the same when you log back in).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
It might be "recent" but it was the one that introduced a lot of people to that type of game; it's the one that made MMO a household name, so to speak. Sorry, but that's how it is. You needn't look at further than its constant use as a point of comparison to find evidence it's established itself as the industry standard.
World Of ******** is now the industry standard, but it doesn't define "traditional". Traditional means the old, long-established way of doing things. World Of ******** is still new on the scene which is why people say it's diverged from tradition, and why that is the #1 complaint about the game itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
That can still happen. It's simply less likely. And it's entirely possible Cryptic will be adding social zones that have increased instance population caps, so to help in this goal- they've made statements to that effect.
They can boost the capacity of zones all they like, it still means people will have to plan ahead to socialise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Which can still happen- it's just less likely. There are pros and cons to this system. A con is that it's less likely to bump into people, the pro is that you don't bump into people who get to your node a split second before you do.
Which is part and parcel of a traditional MMO. Interaction with other players happens whether you like it or not, that's part of the appeal, because you can deal with that interaction in many different ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
That sentence doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that if you turn auto-group off, you'll go into fleet actions by yourself? If you're still referring to being put in a team automatically... that's different than being put in the same instance.
Fleet actions and enemy contacts are designed with group play in mind, fleet actions are a DPS race. Even if you turn off open instance teaming you will still end up in those zones with other players.

But, when it comes to all the other content in the game, you can basically level up entirely on your own, you just have to turn off auto-grouping and it almost becomes a single-player game should you wish it. This is why games like this and Guild Wars are a strong departure from the "traditional MMO". As well as having not player economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
You're entire argument is about how your not being affected by other players makes this an "nontraditional" MMORPG. Then you went on to say what you could actively change to make it so you do things alone.

You're making a case for a negative part of the game then saying what a player can do to make it even more pronounced. That just seems an odd strategy. If the player wants interaction with others, they simply wouldn't do that.
What are you talking about, "negative part of the game"? I have repeatedly said, over and over again, that I have no problem with this kind of gameplay if it's done well. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.

My case is purely about whether this MMO is traditional or non-traditional, both have their own advantages.

I will sum it all up as briefly as possible: In a traditional MMO you basically have no choice but to socialise, usually spontaneously and fluidly. You share an open world and a player-driven economy with other players, you will occasionally run in to players in the wild and it's up to you and the other players to decide how you interact with one another.

Whereas in this game and similar games before it (Guild Wars) socialising is completely optional, if you so wish, and socialising is not spontaneous or fluid due to the instanced nature of the game.

Thus, to my point in a nutshell: I do not see this game as a traditional MMORPG.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
02-04-2010, 02:04 PM
I'm not sure how anyone can say this is a traditional MMO since almost all MMOs are fantasy based and your avatar is forced into a role. You just don't have that in this game.
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