Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-06-2010, 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rabbit

[stuff]

Klingon winning condition:
Kill 15 Federation ships.
This is the current mechanic in Deathmatch battles.
Klingons no longer have to worry about silly capture and hold mechanics and only have to do what they do best, blow up feds.


Problem Solved:


Discuss?
It will be far to easy to for a large group of Klingon to focus fire down those two or three escorts that are in a group again and again to get to the 15 kill limit. Your idea would be great if the feds just had cruisers and science vessels, but this would make escorts a liability for the feds, especially with the low kill count.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post
It will be far to easy to for a large group of Klingon to focus fire down those two or three escorts that are in a group again and again to get to the 15 kill limit. Your idea would be great if the feds just had cruisers and science vessels, but this would make escorts a liability for the feds, especially with the low kill count.
As stated elsewhere the problems with escorts in PvP are far reaching, and need to be addressed. Escorts are basically useless in FvK pvp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 23
02-06-2010, 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rabbit
Really? You can look at these forums and think that there is no problem? You're one of two people then:

A fed who plays exclusively in capture and hold matches.

A kling who plays exclusively in deathmatches.

Because those are the two groups that are content with PvP right now.

Whether or not you think there is a "problem" has no bearing at all on what the rest of the playerbase considers to be a problem, you are merely the minority.
The problem with PvP is nowhere NEAR as bad as the whiners are making it up to be. Yes, there are a lot of whiners on the forums complaining about it. But that is nowhere near the majority of players are you say. Typically the people who whine about the way things are, are the people who come here and post about it. How many different people do you see here complaining? It seems like a lot because people who don't have a problem don't go out of their way to say they are happy with things. This is how any forum based feedback or review system works. People don't feel they need to give feedback if there is not a problem, or they are happy with things the way they are. Take for example apartment review sites, 90% of the people there are trashing the apartments, because they had problems, so they want everyone to know they are unhappy. So, until there are hundreds of thousands of people here whining, then YOU are the minority. The only reason I'm here posting about this is because I'm sitting in class listening to a boring lecture

Now, as far as the source of your complaints. Either your tactics are flawed, or you pug all the time. I play on the klingon side, and I always PVP in a premade with my fleet. Now 80% of the time we end up playing against fed pugs. So, it doesn't matter if the feds have flying fortresses and the klingons are shooting spit wads...the klinks have an advantage of organization. When you have an organized group communicating on vent playing an unorganized group not talking to each other...yes the klinks will win. I have played in a few pugs myself when no one else is around to PVP with. And I lose the vast majority of them. Organization, communication, and tactics are key.

That being said, most people who play klinks are there for PVP, since klink PVE does not exist. So it goes to reason they are generally more organized. I'm not saying all feds pug, but the majority of the teams I play are pugs. You can tell because one will impulse away from the others, they can be baiting by one uncloaked klink ship, or when we engage the ball, they all just tab and hit different targets.

Now, as far as the escort whiners. Fed escorts are tougher than bops... Yes they are weaker than cruisers and science vessels, but they are supposed to be. If there are as tough as a cruiser and do more damage, then why would you play a cruiser? Yes, klinks will target escorts at the first of any engagement because they do the most damage, and die the fastest. Its logical, its called tactics. All you have to do is turn that disadvantage into an advantage. If you know escorts will be targeted first, have everyone else be prepared to spam heal them. Once the klinks alpha strike and rapid fire or whatever else dps abilities they are using expire, their damage goes down immensely. So, now you have the advantage because bops have paper shields.

The problem with PVP is not ship or player balance, its tactics. You can develop tactics to win any battle. With proper organization and communication you have an advantage. Use your brain and develop tactics, don't expect the devs to give into your complaints and make you more powerful so all you have to do is tab and face roll. Each faction has an advantage in certain situations, it is up to you to develop tactics to turn the battle in your favor, if every ship and every situation was the exact same, and everyone had the same tools at their disposal, then what fun would that be?

I apologize for rambling so long, but as I said...I'm bored in class and I'm just trying to address all the points in this thread.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-06-2010, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ushaan
The problem with PvP is nowhere NEAR as bad as the whiners are making it up to be. Yes, there are a lot of whiners on the forums complaining about it. But that is nowhere near the majority of players are you say. Typically the people who whine about the way things are, are the people who come here and post about it. How many different people do you see here complaining? It seems like a lot because people who don't have a problem don't go out of their way to say they are happy with things. This is how any forum based feedback or review system works. People don't feel they need to give feedback if there is not a problem, or they are happy with things the way they are. Take for example apartment review sites, 90% of the people there are trashing the apartments, because they had problems, so they want everyone to know they are unhappy. So, until there are hundreds of thousands of people here whining, then YOU are the minority. The only reason I'm here posting about this is because I'm sitting in class listening to a boring lecture

Now, as far as the source of your complaints. Either your tactics are flawed, or you pug all the time. I play on the klingon side, and I always PVP in a premade with my fleet. Now 80% of the time we end up playing against fed pugs. So, it doesn't matter if the feds have flying fortresses and the klingons are shooting spit wads...the klinks have an advantage of organization. When you have an organized group communicating on vent playing an unorganized group not talking to each other...yes the klinks will win. I have played in a few pugs myself when no one else is around to PVP with. And I lose the vast majority of them. Organization, communication, and tactics are key.

That being said, most people who play klinks are there for PVP, since klink PVE does not exist. So it goes to reason they are generally more organized. I'm not saying all feds pug, but the majority of the teams I play are pugs. You can tell because one will impulse away from the others, they can be baiting by one uncloaked klink ship, or when we engage the ball, they all just tab and hit different targets.

Now, as far as the escort whiners. Fed escorts are tougher than bops... Yes they are weaker than cruisers and science vessels, but they are supposed to be. If there are as tough as a cruiser and do more damage, then why would you play a cruiser? Yes, klinks will target escorts at the first of any engagement because they do the most damage, and die the fastest. Its logical, its called tactics. All you have to do is turn that disadvantage into an advantage. If you know escorts will be targeted first, have everyone else be prepared to spam heal them. Once the klinks alpha strike and rapid fire or whatever else dps abilities they are using expire, their damage goes down immensely. So, now you have the advantage because bops have paper shields.

The problem with PVP is not ship or player balance, its tactics. You can develop tactics to win any battle. With proper organization and communication you have an advantage. Use your brain and develop tactics, don't expect the devs to give into your complaints and make you more powerful so all you have to do is tab and face roll. Each faction has an advantage in certain situations, it is up to you to develop tactics to turn the battle in your favor, if every ship and every situation was the exact same, and everyone had the same tools at their disposal, then what fun would that be?

I apologize for rambling so long, but as I said...I'm bored in class and I'm just trying to address all the points in this thread.
So the hundreds of new threads created daily are because people are content with PvP. I had no idea that's the way the internets worked, thanks for the insight.

Also, I'm offended by your lack of reading comprehension. Not once have I complained about PvP balance. I've won 90-95% of matches that I've been in, and as you so eloquently stated, people that are winning do not complain about balance.

I created this thread due to all the other people whining. Providing essentially a win-win scenario for everyone. The people that are winning, will likely continue to win, the people that are losing will enjoy "closer" matches where they feel they had a good shot at winning. Nobody likes playing a game where you get smashed continually, losing match after match with 0-15 scores isn't fun for the '0' team at all. This solution gives them a chance to win, even if it is a small chance due to them sucking/pugging/whatever.

So how about in the future before you type out a 30 minute rant in a thread, you spend those 30 minutes reading through it first? I realize there are a lot of words, but I'm sure you'll be able to get through it, after all you're bored, right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-06-2010, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rabbit
So the hundreds of new threads created daily are because people are content with PvP. I had no idea that's the way the internets worked, thanks for the insight.

Also, I'm offended by your lack of reading comprehension. Not once have I complained about PvP balance. I've won 90-95% of matches that I've been in, and as you so eloquently stated, people that are winning do not complain about balance.

I created this thread due to all the other people whining. Providing essentially a win-win scenario for everyone. The people that are winning, will likely continue to win, the people that are losing will enjoy "closer" matches where they feel they had a good shot at winning. Nobody likes playing a game where you get smashed continually, losing match after match with 0-15 scores isn't fun for the '0' team at all. This solution gives them a chance to win, even if it is a small chance due to them sucking/pugging/whatever.

So how about in the future before you type out a 30 minute rant in a thread, you spend those 30 minutes reading through it first? I realize there are a lot of words, but I'm sure you'll be able to get through it, after all you're bored, right?
You should take your own advice and read my post closer. There are hundreds of thousands of people playing this game...vs hundreds of whiners.....do the math. As I said people who are content don't generally come post about it, people who want change voice their opinions more than people who do not, as I have already said.

Secondly, this post was not a personal attack to you, so don't be so defensive, I was trying to address all the complains in this thread, not just yours. MOST of the people who are complaining are complaining about balance, feds don't have cloak, klink ships are weak, etc etc. All I'm saying is people need to think and develop new tactics to do better. The devs should not have to create a new scenario because some people lack the intuition and insight to alter a failing strategy. Now, your new map looks good on paper, but what happens when feds learn all they need to do is roll cruisers, invest in defensive abilities such as reverse shield polarity, engi team, sci team, etc and support each other with heals. Then it would be very hard for klinks to kill 15 of them within the time allowed before the counter hits 0. My point is all maps give one side an advantage over the other. The fun is developing tactics to overcome your disadvantage. I don't only play deathmatch, and I don't only play KotH, I play both and try to find tactics to win both, its fun.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I'm just saying that it's easier to alter tactics and learn to win in any given situation, and develop contingencies than it is to get the devs to alter the game or pvp arena to make it easier for bad players to win.

Now, I did see another post where someone was proposing some arenas that do not allow team join. So when your fleet mates are busy or offline, you can pug vs pug. This seems like a good compromise. It doesn't remove the challenge of the other maps for people who like them, but gives the pugger who has drastically varying play time or no fleet a chance to play an opponent in a similar situation. I suppose the negative side of this may be that premade's may experience a longer q time since a lot of people would be playing the pug arenas. As I have said, every map has disadvantages and drawbacks
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-06-2010, 02:16 PM
as long as there is normal DM games, i dont care what they ADD in the game.

as long as they fix the map spawn point thing, put it on 45sec CD when people can start moving.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-06-2010, 02:17 PM
A better fix to gameplay would be to remove cloaks from ALL Klingon ships and give it to only SOME Klingon ships, like the Bird of Prey. That way, Feds won't HAVE to ball up and sit and wait for Klingons to attack, and Klingons will stop whining about it, and Klingons will get some buffed ships with more power and stronger shields/hulls since they won't have cloaks, so they can stop whining about that, also, and Feds will stop whining about all Klingon ships cloaking, thus forcing them to stick in a very tight ball unless they want to lose.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-06-2010, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rabbit
The majority of complaints seem to be centered around the fact that we (Klingons) can cloak, thus giving us the "advantage" in any skirmish.

First, lets make some assumptions:

Klingons are designed to attack from cloaks. We are given cloaks, and thinner armor, we're an entire faction dedicated to hit and run tactics.

Federation are designed to ball up. More Boff slots, more console slots, higher hull HPs and generally fitted with wide arc weapons, Feds are designed to sit in a ball, and shoot from all angles. AKA an entire faction dedicated to camping a single spot.


The Problem:

The problem is that the PvP battles are "Deathmatches" or "King of the Hill" battles. Each one of these plays to one sides strengths (Although it is skewed in Klingon favor due to the KotH matches having multiple "hills" instead of a single one that needs to be defended). Deathmatches are heavily favored towards Klingons, because we can choose when and where to engage the Fedball. Similarly, KotH matches are favored towards Federation due to their ability to tank marginally better than Klingons (However, as I said, the disparity isn't as large in KotH matches as it is in deathmatches).


The Solution:

Remove the disparity and have a single battle type that plays to both sides strengths.

Federation winning condition:
Hold the "hill" causing Klingons to lose match points.
This is the same mechanic as current KotH matches, EXCEPT there is now only 1 hill. One spot for Feds to control and ball up in. As long as the fed players are controlling the hill they have a counter that counts down to 0. When it reaches 0 the match ends and Fed wins.

Klingon winning condition:
Kill 15 Federation ships.
This is the current mechanic in Deathmatch battles.
Klingons no longer have to worry about silly capture and hold mechanics and only have to do what they do best, blow up feds.


Problem Solved:

This new match type solves everything. A single battle type that plays to both factions strengths. Fed players have to do what Feds do best, similarly Klingons do what Klings do best. It also plays towards the story, the KDF doesn't seem concerned with holding territory (we have 2 regions we can go to...?) why would we be concerned with holding some random space antenna in the middle of nowhere. The Federation is built around the idea of expanding and holding territory, they don't send out attack parties to go and kill enemies, they try and control resources.

Discuss?
They already have this map its capture and hold ....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-06-2010, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camoron View Post
A better fix to gameplay would be to remove cloaks from ALL Klingon ships and give it to only SOME Klingon ships, like the Bird of Prey. That way, Feds won't HAVE to ball up and sit and wait for Klingons to attack, and Klingons will stop whining about it, and Klingons will get some buffed ships with more power and stronger shields/hulls since they won't have cloaks, so they can stop whining about that, also, and Feds will stop whining about all Klingon ships cloaking, thus forcing them to stick in a very tight ball unless they want to lose.
^ The above is why I came up with my solution, because the typical response out of fed players is ZOMG REMOVE CLOAKS!
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