Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Right now the exchange's usefulness is somewhat limited, due to the fact that many people have a poor grasp on basic economics, and thus it is full of items for extremely inflated prices. I think there's a couple fairly easy changes you should look at making to help with this problem:

1) Have the exchange keep a rolling average of what an item has sold for and let the player know when they post it. Part of the problem is people see an item up there for 200,000 credits or whatever and say "Wow, I can price mine at 150,000 and it'll sell easy since it is so cheap!" They don't realize that that item has never sold at 200,000 and will never. So have the exchange let them know the last 50 sale rolling average price or something. That way they can see that even if there are some items up there for a lot, they aren't selling and they can get an idea of where to price it that it is likely to sell.

2) Have the exchange take a deposit on items. Charge a fee to post that is a percentage of the asking price. I'd say 5% probably, but maybe less. That is the exchange's cut. If the item sells, the player gets 100% of the sale price, less the posting fee they already paid. However if it doesn't sell, they are out the fee, no recourse. This would help encourage keeping prices reasonable. If something really is worth a lot of money, no problem, post it for a high price. However just spamming things up for high prices hoping for suckers would quickly bankrupt you. Also, this will help with inflation by taking currency out of the game.

3) Limit the time an item has on the exchange to something reasonable. For sure not more than a week, and maybe even just a couple days. You also might want to make the time relative to the rarity. Have common items listed for 3 days, very rare items for 7 days and the rest in between. That way it doesn't fill up with tons of stuff, and the more exotic stuff has a longer time to be browsed.


Basically you just need to add a bit of incentive for people to start pricing their goods more reasonably. Unfortunately without that, you are likely to have an exchange full of items that are over priced and don't sell, with a few legit ones mixed in. With a few changes, you can make it far more likely that people will list items for prices that others want to buy at, which of course makes the whole thing more useful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-08-2010, 12:53 AM
You forgot the most important thing. LET US SEARCH BY PRICE. Not rolling average garbage. When I search for an item by name, it takes 4 to 5 minutes of scrolling through pages to make sure I found the one at the lowest price. Very annoying.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-08-2010, 02:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sycraft View Post
Right now the exchange's usefulness is somewhat limited, due to the fact that many people have a poor grasp on basic economics, and thus it is full of items for extremely inflated prices. I think there's a couple fairly easy changes you should look at making to help with this problem:

1) Have the exchange keep a rolling average of what an item has sold for and let the player know when they post it. Part of the problem is people see an item up there for 200,000 credits or whatever and say "Wow, I can price mine at 150,000 and it'll sell easy since it is so cheap!" They don't realize that that item has never sold at 200,000 and will never. So have the exchange let them know the last 50 sale rolling average price or something. That way they can see that even if there are some items up there for a lot, they aren't selling and they can get an idea of where to price it that it is likely to sell.

2) Have the exchange take a deposit on items. Charge a fee to post that is a percentage of the asking price. I'd say 5% probably, but maybe less. That is the exchange's cut. If the item sells, the player gets 100% of the sale price, less the posting fee they already paid. However if it doesn't sell, they are out the fee, no recourse. This would help encourage keeping prices reasonable. If something really is worth a lot of money, no problem, post it for a high price. However just spamming things up for high prices hoping for suckers would quickly bankrupt you. Also, this will help with inflation by taking currency out of the game.

3) Limit the time an item has on the exchange to something reasonable. For sure not more than a week, and maybe even just a couple days. You also might want to make the time relative to the rarity. Have common items listed for 3 days, very rare items for 7 days and the rest in between. That way it doesn't fill up with tons of stuff, and the more exotic stuff has a longer time to be browsed.


Basically you just need to add a bit of incentive for people to start pricing their goods more reasonably. Unfortunately without that, you are likely to have an exchange full of items that are over priced and don't sell, with a few legit ones mixed in. With a few changes, you can make it far more likely that people will list items for prices that others want to buy at, which of course makes the whole thing more useful.

I agree - but only with point 2

Regarding Point 1) this is actually what we need to happen! in a "free" market - people should be looking to undercut eachother for sales. Thats actually how an economy settles down gradually into a situation where items are priced more competetively with eachother. "Average Price" records will not work that well, expecially in a new market because the price ranges on certain items are still so vast. Hugely overpriced items are still over-inflating the apparent "average" cost of items that are in fact available at a fraction of the cost.

A better way to combat this issue and drive lower prices and more fierce competition would simply be to allow the people buying and selling to sort current items for sale, by price. Even better - have the default be to return results by item rank and then price. Alot of people pay more than they need to because its impossible to see items ranked by cost so they either don't bother searching through pages of items - or they find what the think is the cheapest - but actually isn't. Buying higher priced items (even accidently) just encourages people to carry on posting items with high costs.

Give users the tools to find the best deals - and the high priced stuff is more likely to languish on the exchange with no takers. Eventually they will get pulled by the seller as they won't sell and 20 exchange lots becomes quite a small number to work with for anyone looking to make money on the exchange.

Point 2) - this is a good idea and there should be a fee/cost to using the exchange and posting items.

Point 3) - there is no need to do this. It makes no difference how long items stay on the exchange as long as buyers have the right tools to view what is available and view items by cost. If an item is there and overpriced vs. the rest of the market then it won't sell. If the person can afford to keep one of their 20 exchange slots occupied like this indefinately in the hope of an eventual sale, then good luck to them.

Removing items after a time limit will have little effect on the number of items to browse and instead begins making the exchange a boring and high-maintenance thing to participate in. Also, ranking timecaps by rarity is not a good idea as in many games (including STO) blues become more common in many cases than greens because blues tend to get farmed so much everywhere. Certain green items become far rarer and more sought after and you don't want to have their availability even more supressed through shorter times in the exchange.

This is very simple. Give users (buyers and sellers) the right tools to be able to search and view items in the exchange properly and logically. Give them the ability to easily and quickly make wise buyer and seller decisions - and the market will quickly become a more competetive and fun place to go.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-08-2010, 02:47 AM
Search for BO's by skill level .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-08-2010, 07:06 AM
The reason for an average sales guide wouldn't be to force people to sell at that amount, just to help them figure out where to price something. This would be for sellers, mind you, not buyers. When you went to post an item it would say "This item has sold for an average of XXXX recently." That way, sellers would have an idea of what kind of price they might be able to get for something. They would be free to price lower or higher, of course.

Reason is, otherwise you can get situations where an item never moves. You have people who post at insane prices and never sell. However a new person gets the item, and looks to see what they are listed for to decide on price. They list for an insane price, even if slightly lower, because they don't know any better. After all, all the other ones were listed that high. This would let people know what things had actually closed for, as opposed to what they were listed for. So if there were 10 items all listed for 200,000, and you went to sell one and the exchange said "On average, this item has sold for 10,000 recently," you'd know that the reason those people were all listed is because nobody was buying. You could then list yours for a reasonable price.

As for indefinite listings, I still disagree because it leads to too much garbage being there. This would go double if they instituted a fee for listing. You'd get people that would refuse to remove anything since they'd paid a fee to list it and people are very, very bad at understanding the idea of sunk cost. So I think they should expire, or at the very least cost to keep up. You could do it where the item goes up for a week for the 5% deposit/listing fee, and then if it hasn't sold in that week costs 1% per day to keep it up there.

There just need to be more controls to make the exchange more useful. You can argue that shouldn't be necessary, but it really is.

I do agree with tools for buyers as well, a price sorting option would be excellent, and just more sorting in general for that matter. However sellers could use tools as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-08-2010, 07:19 AM
The exchange is a joke!

You see the prices in there? ...LOL
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-08-2010, 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lx31
You forgot the most important thing. LET US SEARCH BY PRICE.
Sorting is really necessary!

It needs an option to switch the view from lowest to highest price... meaning lowest prices UP... highest down.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-08-2010, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sycraft View Post
The reason for an average sales guide wouldn't be to force people to sell at that amount, just to help them figure out where to price something. This would be for sellers, mind you, not buyers. When you went to post an item it would say "This item has sold for an average of XXXX recently." That way, sellers would have an idea of what kind of price they might be able to get for something. They would be free to price lower or higher, of course.

Reason is, otherwise you can get situations where an item never moves. You have people who post at insane prices and never sell. However a new person gets the item, and looks to see what they are listed for to decide on price. They list for an insane price, even if slightly lower, because they don't know any better. After all, all the other ones were listed that high. This would let people know what things had actually closed for, as opposed to what they were listed for. So if there were 10 items all listed for 200,000, and you went to sell one and the exchange said "On average, this item has sold for 10,000 recently," you'd know that the reason those people were all listed is because nobody was buying. You could then list yours for a reasonable price.

As for indefinite listings, I still disagree because it leads to too much garbage being there. This would go double if they instituted a fee for listing. You'd get people that would refuse to remove anything since they'd paid a fee to list it and people are very, very bad at understanding the idea of sunk cost. So I think they should expire, or at the very least cost to keep up. You could do it where the item goes up for a week for the 5% deposit/listing fee, and then if it hasn't sold in that week costs 1% per day to keep it up there.

There just need to be more controls to make the exchange more useful. You can argue that shouldn't be necessary, but it really is.

I do agree with tools for buyers as well, a price sorting option would be excellent, and just more sorting in general for that matter. However sellers could use tools as well.
You miss point entirely about average prices. All the while the tools to be able to sort results by price are missing - people will pay more than they need to (either accidentally or because they are lazy) meaning even "average" prices are overly inflated for items that are actually available much cheaper. "Averages" in a young economy like this which uses such an unintuitive system of viewing and purchasing in the market would be meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sycraft View Post
I do agree with tools for buyers as well, a price sorting option would be excellent, and just more sorting in general for that matter. However sellers could use tools as well.
You seem to think the ability to sort is a tool only for buyers? Its not - sellers use it too.

Give all users the ability to easily find the lowest priced items means those items will sell - and the expensive ones won't - and sellers can see what it is they need to undercut in order to make a quick sale (or even sell it at all...) Its that simple. And its the fastest way of lowering prices in the market because buyers can buy from the cheapest deals which will force sellers to stay as low as they can.

If you can see 15 of the same items for 5,000 EC on there, you are less likely to post one of them at 50,000.

Regarding the fees making people reluctant to remove items - make it a selling fee and not a listing fee. Its the same thing but if you remove the listing the fee is returned to you also. If items can be searched and sorted better it doesn't matter if the market contains a billion trash items. The ability to sort means I don't have to look at them at all anyway
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-08-2010, 10:46 AM
Adding an average sales price information for sellers does nothing but help sellers. It lets you know how much, on average, something has been actually SELLING for as opposed to being listed for. Let's you gauge what your price should be more accurately. The prices other people are listing for helps you only a little, in that you might decide to undercut them. However you don't know if those prices are ones that buyers are willing to pay, thus undercutting them might not do you any good. Having a sales price as a reference too lets you better decide how to price your item.
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