Lt. Commander
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# 31
02-10-2010, 08:12 PM
Meat's looking into the metagame and balancing issues, naturally he's gonna **** someone off in the process. If more people did what he does these forums would be alot more tactful.
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# 32
02-10-2010, 09:53 PM
I agree especially in the case of a pve vs pvp faction that is a serious issue in that klingons will always have a degree of greater competence in combat and a better under standing of what skill best suit pvp and which are fluff
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# 33
02-10-2010, 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by minionsoldier View Post
I agree especially in the case of a pve vs pvp faction that is a serious issue in that klingons will always have a degree of greater competence in combat and a better under standing of what skill best suit pvp and which are fluff
Well, not always - but they will almost always have a greater degree of preparedness over some of the pve players - that was my point.
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# 34
02-10-2010, 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorFury View Post
Things change a lot in T4 and even more so in T5. By the time you get there having the advantage of initiating the attack has become much less of a factor at all. Multiple stackings of RSP, force feedback, viral matrix, photonic officer, extend shields, and others completely changes what it is like at the lower levels.
Yes they change alot, you said it EXACTLY. There will be as many Klingonballs as Fedballs. The difference bettwen hull/shield numbers is minisculent, because of RPS/extended spam and in the end, the "drawback" of klingon ships is barely noticable, while their "advantages" remain.
People, wich say klingon ships have lower hulls and shield should wake up, got to higher tier and see, that its barely noticable, while the turning rate/cannon using is very noticable.

IF you have problem fighting FEds in T4+5, then you must truly SUCK.
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# 35
02-10-2010, 11:04 PM
It is not an issue of balance between ships and sides. The issue is inherent to the deathmatch maps, and the small size of the resource capture maps. In both of these, either side can remain bunched up. If we had huge objective based pvp maps rather than straight up death match and tiny resource capture maps, tactics and strategy would play a large role. There would be multiple smaller engagements rather than one huge brawl, the focus fire DPS advantage of klingons would be reduced, likewise fedball wouldn't even be viable, and it could overall be more balanced at every tier. As a result it would behoove klingon battlecruiser and escort captains, as well as federation escort captains to outfit their ships in a more balanced fashion, rather than load full cannons and go for broke. This would also give the bird of prey an opportunity to truly work as it should, as an ambush predator against lone federation ships traveling between points or separated from the fleet.
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# 36
02-10-2010, 11:20 PM
An extremely thoughtful analysis by Meat and spot on on all points. This thread should be stickied for newcomers and devs alike. Might prevent the odd uninformed Nerf X threads on the part of the newcomers, and might promote better balance patches on the part of the devs.
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# 37
02-11-2010, 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
Yes they change alot, you said it EXACTLY. There will be as many Klingonballs as Fedballs. The difference bettwen hull/shield numbers is minisculent, because of RPS/extended spam and in the end, the "drawback" of klingon ships is barely noticable, while their "advantages" remain.
People, wich say klingon ships have lower hulls and shield should wake up, got to higher tier and see, that its barely noticable, while the turning rate/cannon using is very noticable.

IF you have problem fighting FEds in T4+5, then you must truly SUCK.
yes yes barely noticeable when you have more BOFF & console slots to stack resist skills indefinitely that make you neigh impervious to cannon fire. I mean its quite minuscule if you think about it, it couldnt possibly give them any sort of advantage whatsoever in the slightest
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# 38
02-11-2010, 01:10 AM
Quote:
In general, discounting specific oddities such as a lack of t2 cruiser and the odd and not-too-well-tested carrier at t5, the KDF generally relies upon flexible but fairly fragile ships which have cloaking and primarily forward facing guns.
The Klingon Cruisers aren't fragile; in fact, I'd say they have superior survivability to the Federation Cruiser in many circumstances. Best I remember, the hull/shield differences are quite small, while the Klingon Cruisers have decidedly superior maneuverability, as well as the ability to cloak (which can set you up for a superior attacking position).

The Federation Cruiser at T4 has a turn rate of 5 (I can't even put into text how horrendously slow this feels - it makes it annoying to even collect the data scans for Memory Alpha). The Klingon Cruiser of the same tier has a turn rate of 10; the Federation Science ship? 12.

Quote:
The federation on the other hand, relies upon role-specific ships classified by their bridge officer designation. Each of their role specific ships with the exception of the tactical ship, is better than the kdf counterpart at that specific role. Science ships with aux and shield cap bonuses, and built in subsystem targetting, cruisers with extra weapon slots, high crew complement and heavy defenses.
The Klingons don't have a direct comparison with the Science Vessel, just like the Federation doesn't have a direct comparison with the Bird of Prey. Excluding those two ships, though, the Federation and Klingons are no more or less specialized than each other.

I'd also argue that you have it backwards on the Federation's "role specific" ships being superior to the Klingon versions; especially in the case of the Escort. The Federation's Escort ships can be targeted 5+ minutes in advance, and attacked from the rear with full cooldown availability (Attack Patterns, Rapid Fire, Tractor Beams, Subnucleonic Beam, etc...) The Raptor doesn't have to deal with such surprise attacks.

The Klingon Cruisers turn much better than their Federation counterparts (as mentioned above), and don't really seem impacted much by the slightly lower shields and hull. They also do not have less crew or weapon slots than the Federation Cruisers. At T3 the Klingon Cruiser has one of its rear weapons moved to the front, but in the two following tiers the weapons numbers and placement are identical (with Klingon ships having the option of Cannons). At T4, the Klingon Cruiser actually has 50% more crew than the Galaxy class (unless the ship listing in game is bugged).

It's also worth noting that bridge officers and consoles between Federation and Klingon Cruisers/Escorts are identical; the only differences come about with the Bird of Prey and Science Vessel.

Quote:
It does seem that at the very top, when both teams are playing their top game, that the feds have more tools for survivability and that this largely blunts the value of alpha strikes.
Again, I think you have it backwards. For one, the Federation doesn't have more tools for survivability, it in fact has less, since MES got nerfed. Once you know who the Federation's healers are, you can pre-target them for killing or lock down. The Federation, on the other hand, has to do enough damage to a Klingon ship to force the healer(s) to de-cloak and become targetable. Granted, a Science Vessel with high Aux (which is frequently what I run) can see that healer if they get close enough, but that's just it - they have no need to actually get close. The Klingon's heal-focused ships have no reason not to see ~15km away with their finger on the full impulse button; the only heal I'm aware of that requires any power setting to boost its effectiveness is Extend Shields.

And the only thing that can really blunt a good Alpha Strike right now is Reverse Shield Polarity. Rapid Fire > everything else.

Quote:
We cannot expect the casual player, soccer mom, high school kid, doctor who plays on weekends, etc. to change their lifestyle to compete with the player who can or will invest more time into the game. Therefore, the playing field in that respect will never be level.
I think it's worth pointing out that time invested and player skill level can be totally disconnected. There were people in World of ******** that only logged on often enough to get 10 Arena games in a week (and farm battlegrounds in the beginning of a new season), and they still ended up with extremely high ratings. Other people can play 10+ hours a day and never be any good. But this is just a nitpick, really...

Quote:
The first and most obvious solution, is for the matching system to pit teams vs teams and pugs vs pugs.

A better solution would be to give teams a rating, and offer a slight exp bonus for a higher rating, or a much larger bonus for defeating a higher rating and let teams opt to go only against ranked teams.
Some sort of competitive rating system would be nice, and I've been hoping that they'll eventually get around to implementing it.

Quote:
This has got to be one of the most ridiculous, biased posts I have seen. I have played both sides as well and my observations are diametrically opposite of yours. If I can quantify, it seems that the Federation wins MOST pvp matches. Countless times I have played Cracked Planet with a PREMADE klink team. We were well organized, but then so were the Feds. Many, many times over has this been the case. Can you guess what the final score was in almost every case? Feds: 15/15, Klinks: 0/15. Same old story: just when we thought our focused, stealth-strike initiated salvos might have a chance to take down ONE Fed 50% hull, back to full hull in a matter of seconds and full shields too. Cross-healing wins. And then the Feds turn their firepower on the weakest Klink. Guess what? Cross-healing, extend shields, Science Team, Engineering Team help from every other klink on our team could not even come close to keeping up with Feds DPS.

PVP is vastly skewed in favor of Feds. So we have cloak. Big deal. I'll trade my cloak for Feds' survivability and DPS any day of the week. Science ships. Give Klinks science ships that can target sub-systems and have the shields and shield regen of Fed science ships and then maybe we'll have a fighting chance.

Every once in a while - and I mean this is a major rarity - we'll play against an unorganized Fed team; i.e. no Fed Ball to deal with. Then do fairly well. But against the Fed ball it's almost always a guaranteed lose for Klingons. Feds say "well you guys have cloak", etc. Again, I say take the stupid cloak. It doesn't really help much anyway and only seems to promote less teamwork. Furthermore, the tiers are totally skewed to favor Feds since you have access to all your ship classes from T2 on while we don't get a cruiser until T3 and some semblence of a science till T5!

Boohoo and all that. We have to deal with adversity. So be it. But please save the bullsh!t trying to make outlandish claims that pvp favors Klingons when it is the exact opposite.
Not trying to be rude, but it sounds like someone runs some Baddy McBadderson premade teams. Like, worse than some of the Klingon pug groups I've run into.
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# 39
02-11-2010, 01:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digglez
yes yes barely noticeable when you have more BOFF & console slots to stack resist skills indefinitely that make you neigh impervious to cannon fire. I mean its quite minuscule if you think about it, it couldnt possibly give them any sort of advantage whatsoever in the slightest
Whats the difference between 6k shield with 3xRPS and 5k shields with 3xRPS ?Also what does hull matter with that ? when there is only green circles around everyone ?
YOu can yell as much as you want, but BO skills remove klingons disadvantages, while they keep their advantages. Would like to see a BO skill wich removes FED disadvantages too...oh way, we actualy have a BO skill wich gives them even bigger disadvantage, its called feedback pulse spam.

So really, dont even try argue with something, unless you participate in T5 RPS spamfest. Its not about stacking resistst (neg'var can stack them too), its about the spam fest of 2-3 abiltiies over and over, wich make pvp dull, boring, predictible etc.

We cant speak about balance, when there are obviously bugged/abused/overused skills wich needs to be toned first. After that, we can speak about balance.
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