Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-10-2010, 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx
a) I believe this was included to further differentiate the classes. I find myself really having to strain to decide which skill to take, since I get so few level III skills.... but I like that. It means I'm defining a role. I can always change out which BO is at a station if I want to change abilities.

It is, however, nice to know that the best Science skills are for SCIENCE SHIPS. This will keep Escorts from being THE uber PvP ship, and Cruisers being THE uber PvE ship. You can use the tier I and II skills from the other professions, but if you want ANY of the best, you need to switch to a ship with the appropriate equipment.

b) See above. It promotes differentiation of ship classes. It also means that you can't have ALL of the tier III abilities for your class at the same time--because they all crowd into the top two ranks, so you've got to choose which you have equipped at any given time.

c) As designed, I'm sure. If you could train ANY of them, why choose a class? Your class determines which high-level skills YOU will have that the other guy WON'T. Differentiation. An engineer in a Science vessel SHOULDN'T be as "science-y" as a Science officer in a science vessel.... but if he can train all of the best tier III skills, he would be.

d) Also a good thing. Otherwise, you'd be able to bypass the class differentiation. As an Engineer, I can't train my BO for Viral Matrix III. This is because it's not in my specialization to do so. But if I could just get a BO with Viral Matrix III from my Science buddy, then I might as well just be able to train it myself.

Your concerns, while broken into 4 categories, really come down to 2:

A and B are concerns with what skills are available because of the SHIP CLASS.
C and D are concerns with what skills are available because of the PLAYER CLASS.

Both categories are in place so that a player functions BEST in the ship that matches their class, even though they still have the option of flying others for other benefits. As an Engineer, I would be greatly offended if a Tactical officer could have all the best stuff I have while flying a cruiser, and now my only "advantage" is class skills (Woo. Nadion Inversion.).

Players and ships should differ in more than just 4 class-related skills.
1. I agree that my concerns are essentially in two categories, which is why my discussions frequently grouped them the same way you did.

2. First, your argument to point c) is, in fact, my point. I'm not sure if you missed it, but I stated in my post that I wouldn't change the fact that a class can't cross-train tier III skills.

3. Your argument against d) is kind of spurious. It isn't the same as just training a skill myself, because it would require an investment that I would otherwise make elsewhere. The fact that my buddy made a different investment means that the system would PROMOTE differentiation. Also, it would promote inter-player communication and trade.

And, if implemented with a cost system, like a cooldown, there would be a limit on the market, thus, again, not making it the same as training it up myself.

4. I agree that points a) and b) promote differentiation, to a certain extent -- as I mentioned in my post. However, both in conjunction limit players unnecessarily. There are already skills that certain ships cannot use, which I'm fine with -- that totally makes sense. Making it so that higher levels of skills people can already use are also limited is redundant, confusing, and overly-restricts players. It also means that there would only be reason to get 9/9 in THREE skills for your captain, which, in a sense, limits a certain type of differentiation.

Your argument actually doesn't make sense. How would allowing a science vessel to use a stronger version of a skill they could already access allowing them to surpass another ship? If you want to use really cool skills, you STILL NEED TO SWITCH SHIPS, because skills are limited to certain ranks. However, if you can already use a skill, you should be able to train it up to the tier III version with enough work and investment. It allows for more investment, more work, and more differentiation.

Also, I want to note that you seemed to misunderstand me. Skills are limited by rank, and I suggest they stay that way. Viral Matrix wouldn't be a Lt. or Ensign skill, and therefore wouldn't be able to be used by anything but a Science vessel. So Science vessels are still different from Escorts, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-11-2010, 07:02 AM
FIRST: Responding to your points.
AT THE BOTTOM: Suggesting a different approach to BO skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaMHC
2. First, your argument to point c) is, in fact, my point. I'm not sure if you missed it, but I stated in my post that I wouldn't change the fact that a class can't cross-train tier III skills.

3. Your argument against d) is kind of spurious. It isn't the same as just training a skill myself, because it would require an investment that I would otherwise make elsewhere. The fact that my buddy made a different investment means that the system would PROMOTE differentiation. Also, it would promote inter-player communication and trade.
For a minute it would, yes. After that, the end result is exactly the same--EVERYONE can have a Bridge Officer with Awesome Power IV.

Quote:
And, if implemented with a cost system, like a cooldown, there would be a limit on the market, thus, again, not making it the same as training it up myself.
Making it artificially take longer doesn't keep it from happening. Everyone could still have a Bridge Officer with Awesome Power IV. It might just cost a bit or take longer.

Quote:
4. I agree that points a) and b) promote differentiation, to a certain extent -- as I mentioned in my post. However, both in conjunction limit players unnecessarily. There are already skills that certain ships cannot use, which I'm fine with -- that totally makes sense. Making it so that higher levels of skills people can already use are also limited is redundant, confusing, and overly-restricts players. It also means that there would only be reason to get 9/9 in THREE skills for your captain, which, in a sense, limits a certain type of differentiation
Making the tier III skills available only WITHIN a class ensures that class retains its role and purpose in the game. It promotes differentiation THROUGH limitation. You can have it all, so you have to choose what you'll have. For the rest, you'll need to interact with others--and do so regularly, not just interact long enough to get the ability from them.

Changing roles is still possible--as a SO, I can still jump in my cruiser and load up my Eng BOs... but I won't be as good as an ENGINEERING captain, since that's his home field.

Quote:
Your argument actually doesn't make sense. How would allowing a science vessel to use a stronger version of a skill they could already access allowing them to surpass another ship?
Not surpass. Be the same as. It undermines class roles. As a Science Officer, even in an Escort, I shouldn't have the same strength as a Tactical Officer in an Escort. I bring some other things to the table, like my debuffs... but the trade-off is that I don't get those tier III player-trained skills--I get to use tier II, but the best is reserved for the best.

Quote:
If you want to use really cool skills, you STILL NEED TO SWITCH SHIPS, because skills are limited to certain ranks. However, if you can already use a skill, you should be able to train it up to the tier III version with enough work and investment. It allows for more investment, more work, and more differentiation.
Switching ships shouldn't effectively switch your profession. I should be able to spot a BIG difference between an Escort captained by a Science Officer, and one captained by a Tactical Officer. The idea is that each captain can MASTER one, and DABBLE in others. It's not about your off-class being made weaker (it isn't)... but rather about allowing your true class to be stronger. Think of tier III player-trained skills like a "synergy bonus" for matching the right captain to the right ship.

Quote:
Skills are limited by rank, and I suggest they stay that way. Viral Matrix wouldn't be a Lt. or Ensign skill, and therefore wouldn't be able to be used by anything but a Science vessel. So Science vessels are still different from Escorts, etc.
And that difference should be larger than just which 4 "captain skills" a player has. An Engineer will be more intimately familiar with equipment of that type... and so a ship that capitalizes on that strength will always be a BETTER fit--they'll be able to dig in and pull out that last little bit of benefit, whereas a Science officer won't have the Engineering know-how to get 110% out of a ship geared toward engineering.

In order to maintain differentiation, there must be some things you can do that I cannot. If this can be undone simply by shuffling ships, there is no differentiation.

ALTERNATIVE:

I understand that your belief seems to be that we lose differentiation when the "best answer" is to pair Tactial with Escort, Science with Science, and Engineering with Cruiser. While other options are still viable, I understand the idea that this can be seen to limit variety.

While I still believe that this integrity should be maintained, I see no problem in finding ways to allow Science Officers to bring THEIR STRENGTHS to an escort... rather than GIVING them the tactical officer's strengths.

The answer to this is quite simple:

If you are a Science Officer, you should be able to train your Science BOs in tier I and II at one rank LOWER than other classes. For instance--you could train Gravity Well I (a LtCom skill) to a LIEUTENANT bridge officer.

-A Tactical Officer could never use Gravity Well I while still flying an escort. But you can. You bring your Science strengths to this vessel.

-The equipment on hand won't allow you to access Gravity Well II, but that's because the ship isn't specialized for that level--you can bring SOME of your strengths, not all of them.

-You still can't get High Yield III, because even though the ship has the equipment, you don't have the specialized knowledge--your specialties are elsewhere, and your strengths are different.

- Take Football, Soccer, and Baseball. A Baseball player switching to Football may be able to throw farther, or maybe run faster... those are his strengths... but he won't be able to take the punishment that a Football player is used to from playing full time. A Soccer player switching to Football might make an excellent kicker... but he likely won't have the hands of a Football vet. Each man can bring his OWN strengths to Football, but simply switching sports doesn't grant them new strengths.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-11-2010, 04:00 PM
Your alternative is interesting.

My main issue with the current implementation of tiers is that they don't stay in the same slot when 'upgraded'. For example, HYT I is an ensign skill, HYT II is a lieutenant skill. Any class would be able to use those skills, so there isn't really a class restriction situation occurring. However, obtaining tier II of HYT doesn't replace tier I, or have anything to do with tier I. I feel like this is counter-intuitive, and leads to more clutter in the skill interface -- added confusion.

Assuming I agree, and we keep tier III skills limited in usage and training, it wouldn't effect class roles if tier I and II skills were direct upgrades of one another. Arguments against?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-11-2010, 04:44 PM
100% agree with changes in first post bar the Rank III as mentioned 2 posts above.

I am only Lt. commander. atm I think when you train over a skill you should get a % of points spent on BO refunded. Or when a BO is sold/kicked out. Not refunding any points at all does not encourage changing and evloving. It encourages sticking with the first BOs you get in game for the entire time. Which is boring. 25/50% refund of points spent should happen.

I actually thought that skills worked the way the topic starter thinks they should work when I first looked at it. To my surprise it doesn't. The way it works now is too confusing. It should work more like 'skill slots'.

Skill point sink is possibly a good idea but I dont know how much you have laying around at later levels.

Also let us filter skills when we go to buy them. I dont want to see tact, engineering skills when I am looking for only science ones. I also dont want to see ground skills when looking for space ones.

Oh and colour code skills on rarity. So I have a BO and train him in X III the skill will show up on him in the right colour. This will make judging BOs easier and will make keeping them and training them more engaging.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-13-2010, 01:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx
a) I believe this was included to further differentiate the classes. I find myself really having to strain to decide which skill to take, since I get so few level III skills.... but I like that. It means I'm defining a role. I can always change out which BO is at a station if I want to change abilities.

It is, however, nice to know that the best Science skills are for SCIENCE SHIPS. This will keep Escorts from being THE uber PvP ship, and Cruisers being THE uber PvE ship. You can use the tier I and II skills from the other professions, but if you want ANY of the best, you need to switch to a ship with the appropriate equipment.

b) See above. It promotes differentiation of ship classes. It also means that you can't have ALL of the tier III abilities for your class at the same time--because they all crowd into the top two ranks, so you've got to choose which you have equipped at any given time.

c) As designed, I'm sure. If you could train ANY of them, why choose a class? Your class determines which high-level skills YOU will have that the other guy WON'T. Differentiation. An engineer in a Science vessel SHOULDN'T be as "science-y" as a Science officer in a science vessel.... but if he can train all of the best tier III skills, he would be.

d) Also a good thing. Otherwise, you'd be able to bypass the class differentiation. As an Engineer, I can't train my BO for Viral Matrix III. This is because it's not in my specialization to do so. But if I could just get a BO with Viral Matrix III from my Science buddy, then I might as well just be able to train it myself.

Your concerns, while broken into 4 categories, really come down to 2:

A and B are concerns with what skills are available because of the SHIP CLASS.
C and D are concerns with what skills are available because of the PLAYER CLASS.

Both categories are in place so that a player functions BEST in the ship that matches their class, even though they still have the option of flying others for other benefits. As an Engineer, I would be greatly offended if a Tactical officer could have all the best stuff I have while flying a cruiser, and now my only "advantage" is class skills (Woo. Nadion Inversion.).

Players and ships should differ in more than just 4 class-related skills.
I can totally see your point and you make very logical sense. In fact, if I were in charge that's how it would have been from the start to promote diversification.

But here's the deal. The devs promised in interviews before this game went live that there would be a robust crafting system in place to where skills you normally can't train on your BOFs because of your captain choice could be obtained through another player who would train a BOF for you or vice versa. That's the promise that was given to potential customers and it wasn't delivered on nor was it ever pulled back with an apology prior to release. That's what I'm upset about. If you tell me something and then don't do it, it's called "bait and switch".

I made a decision prior to launch to cross captain based on that and then I get in game and find out they pulled a switcharoo on me without any notification or peep out of the devs prior about it. I want what was promised delivered frankly and that means the ability to turn to another player and obtain the bof skills I want on my science ship.
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