Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Anyone sick of hearing both sides of the argument?

First off, it's not overpowered. Does it have issues? Yes it does. PvP is a mess atm, and the sooner Feds and Klings realize the real issue, the faster PvP can get on track, cause atm, PvP is dying and taking the Klings down with it.

First off, cloak is a crutch. It gives unorganized teams a chance, and makes organized teams scary. When the Klings go down to the fedball, cloak allows them to organize, w/o being picked off. As long as feds stay in formation, they are deadly. But if that formation breaks down, the feds have little chance of recovering unless they're very organized and form up elsewhere. Otherwise they're caught and hunted down, and can't recover.

That's the real issue with cloak. If the Klings are proactive enough to hit the feds again before they form up, the score becomes very lopsided. Many times it boils down to whether the feds can keep it together long enough so the main body of Klingons are busy with the formation for respawners to get back into the fight.

The fedball is a crutch. For the same reasons. But one begets the other, and cloak is the reason the fedball exists. You can't leave a defensive formation when you don't know where the attack is coming from. Science ships can help establish a perimeter, but they can't actively search. Because gettin too far away from your support will kill you. That makes science ships predictable, and easy to avoid. Reverse Shield polarity, which can only be used once for sci ships, can't last long enough for the fed cruisers to get to you if you stray too far.

Feds are tied down to the cruisers, cause the cruisers can't turn, or move anywhere fast. Klings are just learning this with the carriers. They're even worse, and find themselves outta the fight too often if it moves elsewhere. So now the Klingons are tied down to something. This would balance things out, but carriers aren't the backbone of the fleet. The cruisers are. And they're still cloaked. A lot of Klings are finding the carrier a novelty, and are going back to their cruisers/BoPs/Raptors, cause the advantage is too big to give up.

Right now, cloak detection sucks. I've heard stories of 10-20k detections, but I want to see this for myself. Until then, it's myth to me. So sci ships, make some tutorial. Make a video. Take a freaking screen shot. I refuse to believe that science ships gettin these kind of detection ranges aren't bragging it up on the forums somewhere with proof.

As a side note, another problem with PvP is the playing options. Three kinds of modes,one of which is never played and a capture map which has little leveling benefit? If you wanna advertise PvP leveling, make it worth it. Cause deathmatch is partly the reason things seem "unbalance." Klings can always dictate the fight in deathmatch. No reason to uncloak unless you're shooting something.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-14-2010, 05:09 AM
I have a problem with people who argue absolutes.

From what I've seen the extreme fed argument is that Cloak is overpowering. No ifs, ands, or buts. The Klingons, according to this argument, either shouldn't have it or it should be nerfed beyond any sort of usefulness.

The typical Klingon argument that I've seen goes something like this: We are superior human beings behind the computer. Federation players are all subhuman slime and suck.

Neither of these arguments help the situation.

Posts like the OP, however, do help put things into focus and contribute in a positive way.

As for myself, I like what Cryptic is trying to do. I prefer asymmetric balance rather than both factions having the same exact everything. I do, however, feel that Cloak might give a somewhat lopsided advantage simply because there's very few ways to detect it or otherwise combat it. I suppose that's the point, but I wish there were countermeasures other than sensor sweep which isn't all that reliable.

When I'm fighting Klingons it feels like a kind of Anti-Submarine Warfare with a third dimension and no real ASW mechanism other than playing ball and waiting for the inevitable attack.

However, I realize that Klingon ships generally can't slug it out with federation ships in a toe-to-toe engagement. At least, that's what I understand. It's just frustrating that no matter what it seems the Klingons have the initiative and nothing I or my comrades can do will have any effect on that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-14-2010, 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
As a side note, another problem with PvP is the playing options. Three kinds of modes,one of which is never played and a capture map which has little leveling benefit? If you wanna advertise PvP leveling, make it worth it. Cause deathmatch is partly the reason things seem "unbalance." Klings can always dictate the fight in deathmatch. No reason to uncloak unless you're shooting something.
That is one of the reason I avoid Cracked Planet and Solar Wind (Arena) as much as I can as both Fed and Klingon. When both sides are at their best, it results in stalemate. This becomes much worse in a House battle as you'll never see the enemy until one side or the other gets bored enough to either suicide or outright quit.

But ironically enough, since my own rant-post on the state of PvP, things have become simultaneously much better and worse at the same time for me. I have seen teams of K'Tinga class hold a small Salvage Operation map consistently enough to win several times in a row. But on the flipside, outside of prime-time I have seen Salvage Operation maps spawning with 10 Feds on one side and 5 Klingons on the final leader board. Holding territory like that is far too difficult, so we're still losing most of the time. This time because we simply don't have enough Klingon captains to go around.

Seriously though, Arena is only good for leveling if you play outright suicidal, and therefore are sabotaging your own team. I expect at some point Cryptic is going to take a look at that and start putting the brakes on. Once space PvP becomes a little more balanced, it would be logical to just reduce or pull the plug completely for career losers gaining skill and money rewards. (And perhaps giving more to the winners to compensate.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-14-2010, 05:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristoforo
I have a problem with people who argue absolutes.

From what I've seen the extreme fed argument is that Cloak is overpowering. No ifs, ands, or buts. The Klingons, according to this argument, either shouldn't have it or it should be nerfed beyond any sort of usefulness.

The typical Klingon argument that I've seen goes something like this: We are superior human beings behind the computer. Federation players are all subhuman slime and suck.

Neither of these arguments help the situation.

Posts like the OP, however, do help put things into focus and contribute in a positive way.

As for myself, I like what Cryptic is trying to do. I prefer asymmetric balance rather than both factions having the same exact everything. I do, however, feel that Cloak might give a somewhat lopsided advantage simply because there's very few ways to detect it or otherwise combat it. I suppose that's the point, but I wish there were countermeasures other than sensor sweep which isn't all that reliable.

When I'm fighting Klingons it feels like a kind of Anti-Submarine Warfare with a third dimension and no real ASW mechanism other than playing ball and waiting for the inevitable attack.

However, I realize that Klingon ships generally can't slug it out with federation ships in a toe-to-toe engagement. At least, that's what I understand. It's just frustrating that no matter what it seems the Klingons have the initiative and nothing I or my comrades can do will have any effect on that.
Pretty good analogy, it does feel like anti-sub warfare without the tools to detect subs.

I suppose you could compare this time in STO with early WWII. German submariners called it the "Happy Times" because convoys were so poor in detection, merchants were practically waiting to be sunk. I kinda feel like a submarine in cloak for the same reason. Hardly have to worry bout the scii vessels floating around.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-14-2010, 05:29 AM
Just fix MES so it works in pvp for fed escorts and science ships only, leave the fed cruisers as they are now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-14-2010, 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuxedo
Just fix MES so it works in pvp for fed escorts and science ships only, leave the fed cruisers as they are now.
I truly believe MES was too much in it's original iteration.

All the benefits of cloak, none of the drawbacks. It was TOO good.

However, if it's changed to lower energy levels, which would be a natural way to "mask" your energy radiation, and make it a little less "invisible", then I'd totally agree with it. But it does need to be fixed.

And whether cruisers need to be slightly more maneuverable is sorta linked to the issue, but not necessary.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-14-2010, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
I truly believe MES was too much in it's original iteration.

All the benefits of cloak, none of the drawbacks. It was TOO good.

However, if it's changed to lower energy levels, which would be a natural way to "mask" your energy radiation, and make it a little less "invisible", then I'd totally agree with it. But it does need to be fixed.

And whether cruisers need to be slightly more maneuverable is sorta linked to the issue, but not necessary.
I never said it should be as powerful as it was in beta. It should be a bit weaker version of klink innate cloak for escorts and science ships only.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-14-2010, 06:01 AM
My apologies, what does MES stand for? I seen it a few times but as yet unable to work out what it meant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-14-2010, 06:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerpike View Post
My apologies, what does MES stand for? I seen it a few times but as yet unable to work out what it meant.
Mask Energy Signature. It's a Science BO ability.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-14-2010, 06:11 AM
Biggest issue with cloak is that it can be kept on for 98% of the time. I've played both sides, not too much KDF yet though I'll admit.

Cloak could have a duration, the cooldown should be longer than the duration (e.g. 3 min duration, 4 min cooldown) so you can't instacloak straight after an ambush and battle cloak should be BOP only

The above suggestion WILL cause tears.
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