Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 141
02-19-2010, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gHz
That is an answer? Feds have to build low DPS science characters to counter the high DPS Klingons? How does that make PvP more balanced or more viable? Now if you are suggesting that Klingons should have to 'build' to be able to use cloak then it would be balanced - but if they get cloak natively and without gear/skills/class commitments then requiring the other side to build to counter is unbalanced.
Roll a science Cpatin and fly an escort. Science ships dont ahve to build for systems targeting do they? Why build towad a cloak...its a complete system already. A cloak just is...but we do have to build to maintain its effectiveness.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 142
02-19-2010, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoa-jin View Post
So what..balance isnt always a linear, mirror, type model(but we've talked about this already). We can never target systems innatly like a science vessel(no KDF can), we can never build an Assualt Criuiser, i can never match the BO slots of anyother ship class in game.

If it cloaking was equal to detection it wouldnt be a cloak...it would be a sensor jammer. Everybody has to work toward something in game. No body gets it all, no body can achieve it all. Why cant I out-tank a cruiser, why do I have to work so much harder to survive focused attacks.? Why cant I heal my shields while cloked?

You have to work so hard because the cloak is and always has been a very effective system against the detection. It was made to defeat th very system you are trying to use to detect us with...its a cloak.

You ignore all other aspects and fixate on this cloak like its the only measure of balance in game. Your cloak obcession or envy has you so captivated that its obvious you'll never even accept anything accept an anti-cloak hand out.
The idea that you can roll a tactical Klingon captain, gear up with all tactical BOFFs, skill up all tactical skills, adjust power for shlds and weapons and then click a toolbar button to get full cloak while the counter is building a sci captain in a sci ship with sci skills, gear, and power settings heavy in aux is beyond ridiculous. By the time you build to cloak detecting the reality is you are not very valuable in Klingon killing - sure that ship can be CC and support but that means Feds are at a big disadvantage in requiring not only specific tactics but specific group makeup.

This is the problem - Klingons give up nothing in combat effectiveness to get the best cloak has to offer but Feds must give up quite a bit for the counter. Cloak has to come at a cost in combat effectiveness for Klingons if the counter comes at a cost in combat effectiveness to Feds, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoa-jin View Post
Roll a science Cpatin and fly an escort. Science ships dont ahve to build for systems targeting do they? Why build towad a cloak...its a complete system already. A cloak just is...but we do have to build to maintain its effectiveness.

BS. You can totally spec for combat effectiveness and have cloak be completely perfect against non cloak busting captains/ships. You don't even have to put aux power up to have cloak work against non cloak detecting builds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 143
02-19-2010, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Then you hit another RSP... duh.
i seem to die to bleed-throug or something...I'll investigate...but my current build doesnt seem to work well with RSP. Frankly, Im not too keen of investing too much in a skill suspect will be nerfed.

That being said, i'll see what I can change and what tarde-offs it will entail.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 144
02-19-2010, 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gHz
The idea that you can roll a tactical Klingon captain, gear up with all tactical BOFFs, skill up all tactical skills, adjust power for shlds and weapons and then click a toolbar button to get full cloak while the counter is building a sci captain in a sci ship with sci skills, gear, and power settings heavy in aux is beyond ridiculous. By the time you build to cloak detecting the reality is you are not very valuable in Klingon killing - sure that ship can be CC and support but that means Feds are at a big disadvantage in requiring not only specific tactics but specific group makeup.

This is the problem - Klingons give up nothing in combat effectiveness to get the best cloak has to offer but Feds must give up quite a bit for the counter. Cloak has to come at a cost in combat effectiveness for Klingons if the counter comes at a cost in combat effectiveness to Feds, period.




BS. You can totally spec for combat effectiveness and have cloak be completely perfect against non cloak busting captains/ships. You don't even have to put aux power up to have cloak work against non cloak detecting builds.
You still only think in the simplest terms DPS and 1 vs 1...I cant be of help if thats the only you'll approach this. This isnt PvE content...everything is a trade-off, DPS isnt the end all. I have pretty descent DPS and it does me no good on my own. Im looking to invest in some more DPS skills, but one is only situtational HYTs( I have HYT I) and canon rapid fire. But the increased firepower means less of something else.

Yes I may have both DPS and better cloaking...but Im giving everything to making my cloaking option better. My Cpatain skills go into cloaking and my BO skills go to ECM/EW.

Still, I'll never have a absolute defense against innate sub-system targeting. I'll aways have to run at less than desirable weapons power to counter anti-cloak ships. You only assume a Science Vessel has to divert everything to Aux because you think you have to find us cloakers first. Instead working in a group, aiting for us to show oursleves and then deprive us of the cloak when we need it.

You fixate of defeating the cloak as an offensive tool(you seem stuck on attack and DPS only), instead of seeing it as something to deprive us of after the first strike as a tool for us to use for prolonged engagements.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 145
02-19-2010, 12:08 PM
Your logic is terribly flawed. The reality is that the system as it is now requires one side to use tactics the other doesn't have to and that same side to have a group composition the other side doesn't have to have - this is a major flaw in balance.

Take a 5 v 5 group. Any random 5 Klingons form and effective team and with the simple tactic of sticking together they are near their most effective. For the Feds though they need several things. First, they need proper group composition (at least 1 sci guy for cloak bustin, perhaps 2) meaning they are now, likely, at a serious DPS deficit - by as much as 20% to 40% and they most certainly do not have 20% to 40% more shlds/hull or better ships. Now on top of that composition hurdle they need to still use very specific and effective tactics to compete plus they need to overcome the substantial DPS deficit. This is, at best, an uphill battle and while it can certianly be overcome it is not 'balanced' to have one team starting off uphill while the other starts off on the downhill slope.

Either restrict cloak with things like I suggested earlier having decloaking cause a power shift similar to dropping out of full impulse, limiting what skills cool down while cloaked, and maybe a 3 or 4 second global skill cooldown coming out of cloak OR require Klingons to spec for cloak just like Feds must spec for cloak busting. At a minimum, a non cloak spec'd Klingon ought to have to commit a good bit of aux to avoid detection inside combat range to a non cloak spec'd Fed - so this way two opponents spec'd not for claoking or cloak busting are on even footing inside combat range while the Klingon maintains their advantage out of range leaving the free to setup and get first strike as they should.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 146
02-19-2010, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gHz
Your logic is terribly flawed. The reality is that the system as it is now requires one side to use tactics the other doesn't have to and that same side to have a group composition the other side doesn't have to have - this is a major flaw in balance.

Take a 5 v 5 group. Any random 5 Klingons form and effective team and with the simple tactic of sticking together they are near their most effective. For the Feds though they need several things. First, they need proper group composition (at least 1 sci guy for cloak bustin, perhaps 2) meaning they are now, likely, at a serious DPS deficit - by as much as 20% to 40% and they most certainly do not have 20% to 40% more shlds/hull or better ships. Now on top of that composition hurdle they need to still use very specific and effective tactics to compete plus they need to overcome the substantial DPS deficit. This is, at best, an uphill battle and while it can certianly be overcome it is not 'balanced' to have one team starting off uphill while the other starts off on the downhill slope.

Either restrict cloak with things like I suggested earlier having decloaking cause a power shift similar to dropping out of full impulse, limiting what skills cool down while cloaked, and maybe a 3 or 4 second global skill cooldown coming out of cloak OR require Klingons to spec for cloak just like Feds must spec for cloak busting. At a minimum, a non cloak spec'd Klingon ought to have to commit a good bit of aux to avoid detection inside combat range to a non cloak spec'd Fed - so this way two opponents spec'd not for claoking or cloak busting are on even footing inside combat range while the Klingon maintains their advantage out of range leaving the free to setup and get first strike as they should.
My PvP experience has shown that any Fed group is effective, it doesnt gaurntee a win, but its a viable threat. Ive lost to many well managed pre-mades...but Ive also had a hard time against a group of Escorts...might have lost actually.

Ive seen both sides of the coin, Ive been pretty even in my contests...I dont see the Fed situtation as dire as you suggest...and there aremany out there who agree. Those who do have already given up. You reuse to consider any other combat strategy and there for you have pidegon holed yourself into loosing everytime.

You make every excuse why you cant win without nerfing the cloak without accepting that many are winning against KDF.

We are just spinning our wheels.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 147
02-19-2010, 12:28 PM
Okay, cocoa so you start at 10km while grouping up and then fly in to 6km to start the attack? How often are you detected before you decloak? I'm going to guess virtually never, unless a science captain fires off a sensor scan.

You want us to believe that we have to work for something, yet working for it, gearing for it, skilling for it, gets us a whole lot of nothing. 4-5km detection isn't really useful even to grab escaping BOPs, because all it takes is hitting evasive maneuvers, putting power to engines, and that BOP is gone, even if we tractor it, its still gone. I do this with my Raptor all the time, that is my survival tactic. Power to engines, evasive maneuvers and I can clear ~15km before evasive wears off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 148
02-19-2010, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
You want us to believe that we have to work for something, yet working for it, gearing for it, skilling for it, gets us a whole lot of nothing. 4-5km detection isn't really useful even to grab escaping BOPs, because all it takes is hitting evasive maneuvers, putting power to engines, and that BOP is gone, even if we tractor it, its still gone. I do this with my Raptor all the time, that is my survival tactic. Power to engines, evasive maneuvers and I can clear ~15km before evasive wears off.
This is the key fail point of their argument - one side should for to counter an advantage the other side as innately without work or commitment of the limited resources of gear, skills, and /or power levels. It is a silly argument.

Anyways, I detailed my thoughts specifically on this issue here if you are interested.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 149
02-19-2010, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
Okay, cocoa so you start at 10km while grouping up and then fly in to 6km to start the attack? How often are you detected before you decloak? I'm going to guess virtually never, unless a science captain fires off a sensor scan.

You want us to believe that we have to work for something, yet working for it, gearing for it, skilling for it, gets us a whole lot of nothing. 4-5km detection isn't really useful even to grab escaping BOPs, because all it takes is hitting evasive maneuvers, putting power to engines, and that BOP is gone, even if we tractor it, its still gone. I do this with my Raptor all the time, that is my survival tactic. Power to engines, evasive maneuvers and I can clear ~15km before evasive wears off.
untrue...ive been stopped dead in my tracks with evasive maneuvers, with engine batteries, etc. Why? because best to believe the opponent has evasive maneuvers, and engine batteries too. In addition, the weapons fire is devastating with my shields down.

If I have low damage Im fine, but if Im attempting to escape a bad situtation, these anti-cloak tactics and my fragile hull destroy my ability to slip away. People properly spec'ed for this kind of warfare are devastating. The same/equal level Norway/Oslo that snatched me out of my attempt to retreat was brutal. I personally went after him 3 times and couldnt close the deal...he either destroyed me out right or left be so brutalized I had to disengage.

I had a Science vessel and his group snatch me from just inside 10k, beat the crap out o fme and as I evasive maneuvered away, they accelerated into engagement range again and finished me off. it was only 2 guys on me...Im not sure if it was even the science ship that was one that pursued.

Like I said, some people have figured it out and they have motivated my whole direction of build for the last week. I give them credit, i respect their ability to batter and bruise the teams I play with and i dont go asking for a nerf inspite of the wave of loses Ive incurred because of good fed tactics...including anti-cloak.

but yeah, i expect you to work for it...each ship, each captain, each player has something they have tow ork toward, some weakness to adapt to and some strength to utilize.
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